It’s amazing to be a man who loves and supports women. But beware of going overboard and losing yourself, stepping into the role of the “nice guy.” Nice guys tend to get resentful, or become ghosts of themselves, especially when things don’t go their way. On today’s episode you’ll learn how to stop being a nice guy, and instead maintain your heart and care, paired with your sovereignty and strength.
Find out how to have the best love and sex of your life!
How to Stop Being a Nice Guy in Dating and Relationships: Show Notes
You might say this week’s podcast is for men, because the topic is about how men can stop being “nice guys,” and get to be the full versions of themselves.
But it’s actually also for anyone dating or in a relationship with a man who takes on the nice guy role.
To be clear, I LOVE and am grateful for nice guys. Their incredible hearts are the foundation for a healthy and loving relationship. But if men lose themselves while trying to take care of others, a relationship won’t survive.
Same goes for taking on the role of the “good girl,” if you’re a woman reading this!
Today’s Practicing Love Podcast is with a man who used to get stuck in the nice guy role. Valdo Lallemand has worked through his nice guy tendencies and now knows who he truly is. He supports couples with his coaching business: Happy Couples Play together, and with his Youtube channel: The Vibrant Couple.
In our conversation about moving beyond the nice guy role on dates and relationships we discussed…
- What intimacy really is
- How you can be a superhero with your presence and authenticity, rather than muscles and power
- What women tend to do when they don’t feel loved or heard
- A counterpoint to the freeze the nice guy can get stuck in
- How to be in a relationship where you partner with each other’s shame, rather than being taken out by it
- How to be with a woman’s fire and “storms,” and the difference between toxic and non-toxic storms
- Committing to end blame and judgment, in service of a relationship thriving
Valdo’s perspective on integrating play and letting go of blame is a powerful combination. I appreciate that he opens up about his path to overcome his nice guy tendencies.
When you’re done with this one, if you want more support for overcoming the nice guy tendencies, check out this past podcast episode, The Path from Nice Guy to Powerful, Sexy Man, with Dr. Robert Glover.
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Connect with Valdo
Bio:
Valdo was shaken after the ending of a 25-year marriage and vowed it would only happen once (the divorce… not the 25 years!) and that he would decrease that probability for his friends. He has the uncanny ability to know how to get couples out of a funk, to know where the juice is, and how to transform painful struggles into deeper love and appreciation.
He believes love has to be liberated. He sees that without intentional worldly and divine intervention, couples are bound to trade freedom for security, barter aliveness for comfort, and bargain the willingness to do whatever it takes for the ease of time-tested but mediocre solutions.
He also believes that most traditional couples counseling and therapy approaches lack effectiveness, as they fail to get to the core. He helps couples get to the love and aliveness that brought them together, the playfulness they experienced when they first fell in love, the embers that scream “let’s stoke this fire!,” to the love that yearns to be revived and liberated.
Transcript
Shana James (00:01)
Hello and welcome to this episode of Practicing Love: Have the Best Love and Sex of Your Life After 40. I am excited to be here today with another amazing guest, Valdo Lalamund. Welcome, Valdo.
Valdo (00:14)
Thank you, Shana.
Shana James (00:16)
Valdo has a business that supports couples called Happy Couples Play Together. And what I love about that is the playful aspect. I think I get way too serious in life. And when I actually come back to intimacy, or when I find ways to create intimacy, inevitably there’s some aspect of playfulness there…whether it’s all out, playful or just the willingness to not have to take things so seriously.
It’s important to be able to be in the sandbox like a kid, and make a mistake and not have it matter. We take things so seriously, so thank you for being here. Thank you for the work you do. And I’m excited to hear a little bit about you personally, and hear more about how you work with couples.
What’s your current relationship status, or anything notable about your relationship history that you want to share with us?
Valdo (01:17)
I was married for 25 years, divorced seven and continuing to prepare for my second life partner.
Shana James (01:20)
Do you have specific ways you are preparing?
Valdo (01:35)
I’m preparing in many ways. One of the really big things is I was a nice guy most of my life. And so I’ve worked really hard out of that nice guy-ness, to stop being a nice guy. And I’m also working really hard on learning about intimacy, what intimacy is. For me sex is something sacred that comes as a result of intimacy.
Shana James (02:25)
Yes, that’s why the whole first section of my book, Honest Sex, was about honesty, because that is how I believe we create that intimacy. We could have sex without intimacy, but sacred sex doesn’t happen without that kind of intimacy.
Okay. So you’re preparing through learning about intimacy, and it sounds like one of the struggles you’ve had, that we can talk about more, is this nice guy tendency.
I absolutely love nice guys. I have a soft spot in my heart. I think men who are nice guys, who have big hearts and are generous and caring…I have so much love. And I also know that they don’t always get chosen, or once they’re in a relationship they can be walked on, and talked over, and all those things.
I’ve been thinking recently about the whole Clark Kent / Superman thing. A lot of men, I think, are walking around in that Clark Kent persona, not recognizing their inner superhero. Does that fit for you?
Valdo (03:54)
Yeah, not realizing that their partner, the feminine, wants their Superman, not their Clark Kent.
Shana James (04:02)
Maybe. I don’t want to frame it as, now you’re supposed to be this Superman. But more that you can be Superman to yourself, or know how amazing you are, and be able to stand up for yourself and speak your needs and desires.
What happened for you in this process where you stop being a nice guy?
Valdo (04:28)
Superman is tricky because it’s the superhero myth. Of course men want to be a woman’s hero, but the actual work is through one’s presence, one’s purpose, one’s authentic masculinity, which for some men is muscles, and for some men like me, it’s not muscles!
It’s not because I don’t care about that. It’s just that my way of being masculine is about vision, and my way of penetrating is saying, hey, there is bullshit here. And my way of penetrating is through playfulness. An example of that is that if I show up as a nice guy, I can say, “oops, my nice guy just showed up. How about we do a take two?”
That’s a playful way in which I don’t have to somehow manosphere myself into that tough guy that feels nothing. I can just be honest.
Shana James (05:34)
Yes. So my sense is that you worked on this in your marriage. What was happening? What did that look like when you fell into those nice guy patterns?
Valdo (05:52)
For about 20 years, I’ve been in men’s groups and 13 of that was during my marriage. I noticed how different my ex-wife was when I showed up after a men’s group. At the beginning, she was somewhat reluctant sometimes.
But at the end, she was kicking me out and saying, go to your men’s group.
Shana James (06:21)
Ha ha. What was the difference? What was the nice guy versus the post men’s group guy?
Can we talk a little bit about how the nice guy showed up? And let’s honor that there are amazing things about the nice guy.
It also sounds like it didn’t create what you wanted in your relationship or not all of it. It’s very much more complex than black and white, but it sounds like something got in the way.
Valdo (00:20)
Yeah, so he definitely didn’t create what I wanted. In a nutshell, I was frozen and I was overwhelmed with shame.
Shana James (00:36)
Yes, I feel that in my heart.
Valdo (00:40)
So what happened is that I was in an environment of nice guys. Apart from the men’s groups and reading about men’s work, most of my environment and most of my friends were nice guys.
One of the examples is a friend of mine kept telling me again and again, the joke that he’s always the one ending arguments with his wife by saying, “yes dear,” and there is a piece of me that would always collapse. But I did not know why for a long time.
So in the moment, my ex-wife wanted to be heard about something. I responded from my nice guy, which made her not feel heard. So she doubled down and I froze more, and she doubled down and I froze more, and she doubled down and I froze more. And you can imagine the very classic nice guy, where his wife wants to be heard in an argument, in which it goes nowhere.
Shana James (01:47)
Yes, right. And then it really kills that intimacy. And it makes so much sense to me that the freeze response would happen. Especially in that intensity of fire coming at you. And if you think, well, what I’m supposed to do is make this nice, or I’m supposed to fix this and yes, dear it, but it’s not working, then you’re trapped in there.
Valdo (02:32)
It was worse than being trapped. I was dissociating in many ways. Some people, when they dissociate, are fully out of their body. But I was just off a little bit off, or a little bit this way. So I very much responding from my head. The response was very automatic, and was very monotone. La, la, la.
One of the examples is my ex-wife was asking me about my business. She most likely asked because I didn’t share enough – the typical guy not communicating enough, and she didn’t feel safe. So most likely I felt trapped, as you were saying, and not from her, but from my point of view. I was just frozen and I was just there, and you know this does not inspire safety for the feminine.
Shana James (03:30)
Yes, and I do believe that we’re each responsible. You’re doing amazing learning to be able to step out of that role, or that way of being, on your own.
I’m also curious, because I think nice guys get a really bad rap, if there’s anything she could have done (again, not putting all the responsibility on her)… for a couple who’s in that dynamic, is there something she could have done that would have been helpful to you as well?
Valdo (04:05)
Totally. The way I’m seeing it is we both have a masculine and a feminine, and there is the question as to which one we are in. So, for example when I was in my nice guy, frozen. I was totally into my freeze and shame and there was nothing else.
So what I’ve done over the years is I’ve learned to be in my straight spine. It’s emotional strength. So that when I’m in the fire, with the feminine – which will happen no matter what – I can remain in that place in which I can be present with her. And I can also be present with my shame and whatever other emotions I have.
Shana James (04:35)
Yes, so you’re learning to unfreeze, and to witness all of those responses.
Valdo (05:00)
Exactly. So from the feminine point of view, of course she’s pissed that her man is not present right now.
And what happens is, instead of doing the typical feminine thing, only remembering the last thing I did, or only remembering that 14 years ago I did a thing….
Shana James (05:20)
Like “You always do this” Or “This never happens!”
Valdo (05:30)
Yes. Instead of doing that, she can use her masculine. And somehow take a step back and think: wow, overall he’s providing a roof, he’s doing a good job with the children and this and that. And we are stuck in this moment in which I’m basically admonishing him for just the last thing.
But what was my part? What was the exchange? And yes, I can see that I somehow attacked him a little harder than I could have.
So next time, how can I do something different? That is her masculine.
Her feminine is to be in the throes in the moment of her anger, which I in no way do I want to diminish, because that’s her beauty. But then from that point of view, instead of showing up like “you’re not present,” she can show up with, “I’m really angry right now,” which is so much easier to hear.
Shana James (06:04)
Yeah, it’s so interesting. I think you and I may have slightly different views, or maybe very different views around the masculine / feminine, because I think there’s a toxic feminine expression, and I think there’s an open-hearted feminine expression.
So, I could also see that she could come to you, and maybe that’s where the masculine / feminine seems to be falling apart for me these days when I try to grok it…She could come to you with that witness capacity to say, “hey, it looks like we’re stuck in this dynamic, and I can see you doing this, and I’m doing this.”
She could also come to you with this open-hearted, “I want you, I need you, where did you go?” “I see you and I’m feeling alone here.”
We can all come together in more conscious ways. And I admire that you’re seeing your role in this. That you could have done this differently.
And we can look at what our partners do as well. What would it be like to partner around our shame?
You’ve got shame, I’ve got shame. How do we navigate our shame together?
That’s kind of playful, even though it’s dark play.
Valdo (07:28)
Yeah, you and I have a similar view of masculine being a consciousness, awareness, that big picture observer. And then everything inside is the flow of the feminine. My shame is feminine.
Shana James (07:45)
Interesting. So anything flowing, moving expression, that’s, for you, feminine.
Valdo (07:57)
Exactly. So, for me, being in my masculine is having a straight spine, and being able to handle whatever life throws at me, like feminine storms, which whether they are a partner, or in business or whatever that is, are just part of life.
You look at the weather forecast, there are storms everywhere. And the key is to be present because one of the things I see in my feminine clients is they love to be penetrated and corralled by masculinity and say, “No, this is bullshit.”
Shana James (08:45)
Can you give an example of what you mean by this is bullshit?
Valdo (08:49)
You talked about toxic feminine earlier. There are two parts that are so ingrained that most women don’t see. The first one is that men cause their storm.
Shana James (09:10)
That’s what they’re saying?
Valdo (09:12)
That’s what I’m seeing women believe.
And of course men have a role, but the women also have a role. So if it’s just one sided, and the second thing is blaming men. And very few men have the emotional strength to say, “Darling, you’re blaming me right now.” And so the second part is confusing emotions and judgments.
Going from fear to judgment, like “You never, you always, you this…”, which makes it much harder to be with.
Shana James (10:26)
I remember a distinction, when I was doing some of David Deida’s work years ago. We had a falling out, and there are things that I love about his work and there are things that I think are problematic and painful for a lot of people I’ve engaged with.
But there was a distinction between the feminine expression and that of dumping and blaming, shaming and attacking. I don’t know if we call that the feminine or we just call it, it’s just garbage. It’s regurgitated blah. It doesn’t help anything.
So, I’m curious about that too, because I think after my divorce, part of what I came to see was that anytime I go to complaint, instead of sharing desire…anytime I shut my heart down, instead of bringing vulnerability to my partner who I trust, I was kind of shitting in the pool, is how it feels to me. I’m curious if there’s a different way that you see it.
Valdo (11:49)
So David Deida is very often misinterpreted. This is the place where the toxic part is really important. A feminine storm is a feminine storm whether it is toxic or not. I’m pretty sure with your partner there are times you are so pissed at him, and that’s normal.
So then there is a difference between saying, “Darling, I’m so pissed.” I’m so pissed is much easier to hear than “You’re an asshole.” OR “You never, you always,” is much harder to hear. So the piece in which David Deida is often misinterpreted is that feminine expression is a carte blanche to abusing men.
Shana James (12:17)
“I hate you. You’re an asshole.” Versus “I’m so pissed.”
Yes, agreed.
Valdo (12:46)
The piece which is important is for the masculine to see that every storm is a feminine expression. So for me to build a capacity to withstand “You’re an asshole and a jerk like your father, blah, blah,” whatever she would throw at me, or my ability to withstand it and then say, “Hey, darling, come and give me a hug, or whatever it would be.
One of the things that David Deida teaches is what he calls the tussle. It is basically to do something to make her feel loved. And it’s so interesting. Most women I’ve been practicing with, either through dating or in intimacy retreats, the main reason they have that storm that often is often toxic is because they don’t feel loved.
Shana James (13:48)
Yes, they don’t feel loved. Can we just pause, and then I want you to keep going. But I really want to double click on that, that so often the storm happens when a woman isn’t feeling loved.
Valdo (14:00)
Exactly. So basically when she doesn’t feel loved, most women go to their head, to blaming, and to judgment.
So calling her on this, and what I was saying earlier is basically saying, “darling, I love you so much.” And in a way that is just not words, but physical.
I was with a client a week ago and we started talking and they were saying, we haven’t seen you in three months and our intimacy has gone down and we are walking on eggshells. And so I asked him a little bit about what is going on. And at some point I said to him, and she knew because she was there in the room, “instead of talking with words, grab the leg of her chair and pull her to you about a foot.”
And suddenly she smiled and I told him, you know, she even doesn’t remember what she was upset about. And she looked and said, yeah, this is true. So basically there is a downward spiral that often gets toxic. And so what I believe a man in his strength can do to the feminine is to stop that downward cycle, however toxic it has become.
Shana James (15:29)
Yeah, and I guess that the part that I would add and I don’t know, maybe I over rationalize this, but then what I would want to see for couples is a conversation outside of that stormy moment where it’s like, hey, this is not how we wanna treat each other, right? We actually want to bring respect, we want to bring love, we don’t wanna blame and shame and attack each other.
Valdo (15:48)
Totally. And most couples work happens outside of the times we’re together. The times when we talk one-on-one in our men’s group, we talk one-on-one with friends. One of the things I coach single women I work with on is to process your emotions with your girlfriends. And then when you’re ready to share them without blame, then you can talk to him.
In my own growth, the key to my unfreezing was rightful indignation. So basically downward spiral after downward spiral.. And basically getting to: I cannot believe that shit is happening. And what do I do about it?
So I didn’t go straight for anger, that rightful indignation warmed up over time, to unfreeze and unfreeze more. It helped me unthaw.
Valdo (17:05)
I cannot believe this shit is happening…
Shana James (17:08)
Was a counterpoint to the the freeze.
Valdo (17:11)
Exactly. And I was able more and more to stand in my straight spine and not let collapse into my nice guy.
Shana James (17:19)
Interesting. And then did you come back into some middle ground? Because I would think with righteous indignation, there’s not a lot of room for intimacy there.
Valdo (17:35)
No, not at all. But there was no room for intimacy before anyway. So the work happened over time. The metaphor I love is if you take a car and you have lots of gas in the gas tank and you put a match, boom, it explodes.
But if you burn a little bit, you know, 100 times a minute, or however many times RPM that is, then the car goes, and you can go somewhere. So it was a lot of small moments of straightening my spine in many different environments, including conflict.
Shana James (18:08)
Awesome. Thank you. This is an interesting conversation and I hope that anyone listening, whether you are single or in a relationship, that you can get a sense of where you fall on any of these lines.
Are you blaming, shaming, attacking? Are you collapsing? Are you freezing? Are you explosive and fiery? The goal of this is to be able to see ourselves and see our partners and have more of that witnessing capacity, to then have more consciousness and more choice around all of these as we’re practicing.
Valdo (18:46)
Yeah, and from a feminine point of view, what I’m seeing with the women I’m dating, and the feminine clients I’m coaching, is there is open or closed. And I need to pay attention to that. Some of it could be like I was telling you about that client I was with a week ago, in which she was like this, and then he pulled her chair and suddenly she relaxed.
Shana James (19:18)
For people who aren’t watching, they’re just listening, she was a little more hunched over or distant?
Valdo (19:26)
Yes, and she was blaming him. “You never listen to me. You are not present enough. You’re lost in your work, you…” whatever it is. And he grabbed her chair, with love. So it’s not a violent move. It was a firm move. And suddenly she relaxed and she totally forgot about it. And so that is the masculine action to reopen her, “Hey, I love you.”
And so sometimes it works… I was recently with a client and he made a move to his partner and his partner told him, “Hey, I would love you to straighten your spine.” And when he straightened his spine, she leaned towards him.
Shana James (20:34)
It’s so interesting. What I love is when couples are not taking it personally – not feeling bad or wrong that I’m not doing this or I’m not doing that. Where we actually want to do what creates intimacy and spark with each other. And so we can go beyond the I’m wrong, you’re wrong, you’re making me wrong, I’m making you wrong. right. Let’s collaborate here to create more love and intimacy!
Which goes back to where you talk about happy couples playing together, and they actually explore together and they’re on the same team, as opposed to trying to get a win for one side or the other.
Valdo (21:32)
Yes, we either both win or we both lose.
Shana James (21:35)
Yes, beautiful. Thank you so much for this. Is there anything else you want to share before we wrap up besides where people can find you?
Valdo (21:46)
Keep up the good work, Shana
Shana James (21:48)
Thank you. You too. I’m grateful for you doing what you do, and supporting the people you support. And I can feel the depth of your heart and what you want for people, and the love you want for people.
Thank you.
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