Strong and independent women are pretty common these days. If you’re a man or woman who loves women, this episode will help you understand how to sidestep intimidation and create an inspiring connection with this type of woman. If you’re a strong, independent woman, you’ll hear from another woman who has learned to let open up and love in, without having to be weak or small.
Find out how to have the best love and sex of your life!
The Way to Love a Strong and Independent Woman: Show Notes
More and more these days, the women I meet are strong and independent. Women have learned to take care of themselves. They are not waiting to be rescued by Prince Charming, and they’re often even a bit hopeless about being well cared for.
If you’re a man who loves women, it can seem like strong, independent women don’t need anything, or anyone. They may seem like they’ve got it all together and even be a bit intimidating.
If you’re a strong and independent woman, no matter who you love, you may not know how to let someone in. You may be afraid it looks weak to open up and let yourself be supported.
This week’s guest on the Practicing Love podcast is someone I met years ago in an unusual way. We were both matchmakers on the MTV reality show — Are You the One! 🤩 Dr. Frankie Bashan and I instantly hit it off, as we interviewed 60 or so young adults about what they were looking for in love, and created matches they’d have to figure out while living in a big house together over a few months. Dr. Frankie is the CEO and founder of a matchmaking company and is a clinical psychologist and a board certified sex therapist.
In our important conversation for the way the world is going these days we discussed…
- When to rely on self & when to rely on another (this is important to understand if you’ve dated independent women)
- What you can add to an independent person’s life
- How to believe in your lovability
- The answer to the question “Why do you need me?”
- How to create deep intimacy — including your deepest fears and insecurities
- What happens when we choose to be in a relationship, rather than need to be in a relationship
If you’re looking for more on being with strong, independent women, check out this past podcast on how to inspire lust, trust, and devotion from a strong woman.
Links:
Connect with Shana James
Best love and sex of your life quiz
Get a Free copy of Honest Sex: A Passionate Path to Deepen Connection and Keep Relationships Alive.
Whether you’re dating or in a relationship it shows you how to take the self-doubt, struggle and shame out of your love life.
Curious what you’d need to become a better leader and lover? Take the quiz
For Women: Modern dating doesn’t have to be a nightmare for women
Connect with Dr. Frankie
Bio:
Love is a universal journey, but it’s not always easy. Building connections can be a fulfilling and inspiring adventure, but it can also feel overwhelming. That’s why, in 2009, Dr. Frankie founded Little Gay Book, which has since become the leading LGBTQ+ matchmaking service in the United States. Her passion lies in connecting humans who have achieved so much in life but are missing that special someone to share it with.
In addition to matchmaking, she’s also a sex therapist, integrating a holistic approach to pleasure and sexual connection into both her matchmaking and one-on-one practices.
Transcript
Shana James (00:02)
Hello and welcome to this episode of Practicing Love: Have the Best Love and Sex of Your Life After 40. I’m your host, Shana James, and I’m excited to be here today with an amazing guest who is the CEO and founder of Little Gay Book, a matchmaking service. She is a certified, board certified sex therapist and clinical psychologist, Dr. Frankie. Thank you so much for being here to talk about how to love a strong and independent woman.
Dr. Frankie (00:27)
Shana, thanks for having me.
Shana James (00:29)
What most people won’t know is that you and I were together as matchmakers on an MTV reality show, Are You The One, years and years ago.
I can’t remember how many years it was, but we were down in LA and supporting these youngsters, to see who would be a best fit for this MTV reality show. So we met years ago and I’ve always loved your work.
Dr. Frankie (00:48)
Thank you. It’s so nice to see you again. Right away when you were like, “do you remember meeting me?” When you said “MTV,” I though, I do remember you because it was so nice to meet you at that time. I had thought: “you’re so grounded.” Because here we are in the world of reality TV and then there’s you…
Shana James (01:05)
Haha. I know. I feel like we were the oddballs. We were the ones who are doing the real, deep work.
Dr. Frankie (01:25)
Yeah, so I was very grateful that we crossed paths there.
Shana James (01:27)
Me too. Okay. So focusing on you, and I can’t wait to hear both your wisdom, and the vulnerability of being human and helping people understand that nobody’s alone in struggling in relationships. And that to love a strong and independent woman is possible, even when it feels scary or someone feels pushed away.
So for a little background, what do you want us to know about your relationship life or current relationships?
Dr. Frankie (01:53)
My whole world is about relationships. I work with couples, I work with singles that are struggling to find relationships and I myself, I value relationships so deeply and because of my childhood, which was insanely crazy. I grew up in Manhattan with two people in the fashion industry that were very, very…I would say narcissistic, self-focused, self-absorbed, and here I was an only child.
So you can imagine I kind of raised myself. And what happens with that is you become very self-protective, self-sufficient, self-possessed. So I have a really big struggle being vulnerable. And that’s been my life’s work, to figure out how to really allow the person that is closest to me, my partner, feel like I can trust them, I depend on them, and I will look and ask for help from them.
Shana James (02:57)
Okay, so asking for help. Let’s dive right into the struggle, I love going deep and fast.
As I think what I heard you just say is vulnerability includes asking for help, and being known by someone. Can you paint a picture of how you protect against vulnerability, or what aren’t you showing, or saying, or asking for?
I think that helps people understand if they do it too.
Dr. Frankie (03:30)
Yeah, it’s so automatic. I have to really think about that question because I’ve always had myself to rely on. And early in the early years there were crickets, the echoes of just me. If I needed help, there was just nobody there to respond. So now it’s about really slowing down and thinking, okay, just because a superpower of mine is that I have an insane amount of capability and capacity, that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s great for me to just overly rely on myself all the time.
So it’s to slow down and think, “okay, what now?” Maybe I’m feeling a lot in my body. There’s a lot of weight on me and thinking: what can I ask my partner to help me with, to help me feel less heavy?
So I self-reflect and I do a scan – a physical body scan to see how I am feeling.
Shana James (04:33)
Yeah. And consider: what support could I use right now?
I imagine that one way it would show up is almost invisible. You’re going about your day and you’re doing your thing, and your partner’s doing their thing.
And it is almost like an invisible force field, where instead of slowing down, or asking for a hug or asking for someone to help you get something somewhere or do something around the house, that need is almost invisible – which is why I think it’s harder for independent people to realize they’re doing it.
Dr. Frankie (05:08)
Totally. It’s just all autopilot, automatic. Or reflexes. I have reflexes that if I don’t slow down to heighten my consciousness around it, I’m controlled by something other than being fully embodied. It’s just an automatic process.
Shana James (05:29)
Yes, and the reflex…as I’m trying to continue to paint this picture, because like you said, it’s hard to know that it’s happening.
I think there are people who walk around in the world and they’re like, I’m just here, in a relationship. Not self-reflecting. I think some people don’t even know the kind of intimacy that’s possible, or the kind of support that’s possible, or the kind of adoration that’s possible.
What have your partners complained about to you, or how do they see it? What have they thought about you being a strong and independent woman?
Dr. Frankie (06:06)
“Frankie, you’re so capable and so independent. Why do you need me? What purpose do I serve in your life? You’ve got a solid support system, you’re financially secure, you’re incredibly successful, highly educated, confident, comfortable in your skin, well-traveled. What can I add to your life?” And I’m like, “my gosh, so much more than you can even imagine.
To have somebody there that I can chat with about anything and everything! They don’t guess, because I seem like I’ve got it together. It’s like most people I’ve been with feel that because I will often not look to them first to help me in situations. So then they see me just handling it. Not that I want to! I’m not even thinking about it!
Shana James (07:07)
Right. It’s just a reflex. Something hit me when you said that people have that question “do you even need me, or why do you even want me in your life?”
It is interesting that on the one hand what that speaks to is that we don’t always recognize the depth of who we are for another person in a relationship. It’s not all just about driving carpool or paying this bill or doing this thing. My God, there’s a kind of intimacy in I want to chat with you. I want to know you. I want to touch you. I want companionship.
Dr. Frankie (07:49)
And that for me is number one, just to have that companionship and that person, that day in and day out can be there with me without judgment, you know, and it doesn’t mean that we don’t get into conflict. It doesn’t mean that I don’t feel judged, or criticized. For sure that comes up because it comes up in every relationship. But that person still keeps showing up.
They don’t leave the court, they’re there with me through the tough times and through the mundane boring times. And there’s got to be tons of silly times. The majority of my time needs to be in laughter, like silliness. And my partner provides that. So all of those things are so valuable to me.
Shana James (08:42)
That’s so awesome. I heard someone say once that a relationship is a horrible place to get something, but a beautiful place to co-create something.
I think there are some issues with that when we think about strong and independent women, or people. Because someone who’s independent often comes from that lens of not asking for anything, or I won’t need anything. Or like you said, it’s a reflex. It’s not even something you would think of.
But it’s also really beautiful for someone who’s in a relationship with someone who’s independent to think, maybe it’s not that this person needs me like that, but this person actually wants me!
There’s an interdependence beyond co-dependence that happens where we can actually be in this together, not because we’re gonna fall apart without each other, but because we actually want to enjoy each other.
Dr. Frankie (09:36)
Yes. I choose to be in this relationship. It’s not because I need anything from this person. But what my partner gives me, I’m so grateful for.
I definitely thrive in relationship when I’m on my own. I’m go, go, go and like to surround myself with lots of friends and things like that.
But there is a depth of intimacy that I strive for in relationship, and I want to grow and learn. I have had so many years. as a child, to struggle and experience things that are unfathomable. And the only way you can really heal is in relationship. So I want the struggle. I invite the struggle. I sit in it and it’s gnarly sometimes.
Shana James (10:36)
But when you’re inviting it, it goes a lot better than when you’re resisting it.
Dr. Frankie (10:43)
I’m like, it’s here, it’s hot, let’s just be in it. And sometimes it sneaks up on you. Sometimes I just totally got dysregulated.
Shana James (10:48)
Yes, yes. Can you speak to the depth of intimacy that you’re referring to? Because I think I have a hard time putting words to it sometimes, so I’m curious how you would say it.
I often say that the clients I work with end up having these relationships where there’s more intimacy than they’ve ever experienced. They feel more supported. They feel like they can be themselves, that the playfulness and the spark happens as a result of that. What words do you use to describe that kind of intimacy you experience?
Dr. Frankie (11:34)
I can share my deepest fears, my deepest insecurities. One fear for me is where I’m maybe unlovable because my parents were, no matter what I did, it wasn’t enough to get their attention.
So if I’m not perfect as a partner, as a mother, as a matchmaker, as a psychologist… If I’m not perfect, then maybe they’ll fire me, maybe they’ll reject me, maybe they’ll abandon me.
So that’s something where if I’m open about it, I know it’s my vulnerability and my partner is right there to support me around that. And if I mention this is coming up for me, there isn’t a response that’s shaming or dismissive. It’s a response of curiosity.
Shana James (12:31)
I want that for everybody. And I think, often what gets in the way is people’s own shame and their own fear of being abandoned, or not loved, or anything like that.
And that I need to prove something, or I need to protect myself. But yeah, God, I wish that everybody in the world could feel that kind of support and adoration and that, just because you feel unlovable doesn’t mean I am viewing you as unlovable, right? I’m here with you, I love you in all of this.
Dr. Frankie (13:11)
Yes. I think another piece is to be willing to truly show yourself, be yourself, and give that person an opportunity to love you just the way you are.
Shana James (13:20)
Yeah. Why do you think it’s so scary?
Dr. Frankie (13:33)
The truth is, you want to find out early. You don’t want to waste your time in something where you’re with somebody who can’t accept you.
Shana James (13:40)
I 100 % agree. There are so many times when people ask: isn’t it too soon to have that conversation? I say, “nope.”
I don’t have any rules, but I definitely encourage people to ask the questions sooner, and see who this person is, and how they respond to you when you open up and share vulnerably.
And then years and decades into the relationship, if that hasn’t been happening, it can be even more vulnerable to show yourself.
Dr. Frankie (14:15)
Yeah. The message is just don’t wait from the beginning. Just step into what’s true for you, your authenticity, and trust that you are lovable, you are likable.
And it may not be this person that you’re dating right now, but it will be somebody else. But you don’t want to lead yourself and that person down a fruitless path.
Shana James (14:44)
How do you support your clients or your patients who don’t feel lovable? Because what you just said, I believe in. How do you help people believe in that in themselves?
Dr. Frankie (14:56)
Through self-discovery, lt has to start with us. So really doing some internal work of looking at their cognitions — what are their limiting beliefs? What are their negative beliefs about themselves? And there’s automatic thoughts…We talk about reflexes and automatic processes. There’s an undercurrent that’s happening all the time that we’re not consciously aware of, that we need to reveal, to unearth it, be aware of, so we can counter it, because it’s not a true narrative, it’s not a true story. Those are not true statements. We’re all lovable.
But if we don’t love ourselves, it’s gonna make it hard for other people to love us.
Shana James (15:41)
Right. Well, that’s so much a foundation of being able to share vulnerability, I believe the more you love yourself, the more you can share something, and not then be waiting for that person to reject you.
It’s more like, however you take this, whether you don’t take it well, or whether you cherish me because of it, I still love myself and know that I’m a good person and I’m human versus…shit, I’ll say this, but now I’ll guard myself or worry that now it’s over, and then do all kinds of crazy things.
Because of that, I know in my marriage that ended a long time ago, I did the thing where I would say, “maybe it’s just not gonna work. Maybe it’s just over.”
I threatened the end of the relationship, not knowing that I was threatening it. I didn’t realize how much that broke trust, in my own attempt to protect myself.
Dr. Frankie (16:42)
Yes. This probably comes up in your practice too, where people will threaten to leave their relationship, threaten divorce, because they feel vulnerable, they fear scared, and they’re trying to gain control of the situation.
And it totally undermines a sense of safety, security, trust in the relationship. And then they’re not serious about it. They’re just throwing it around. So then how do we take you seriously?
So I always say, don’t ever do that. Bite your tongue as best…
Shana James (17:16)
Bite your tongue, hold it in. I mean. I remember when I would say things like that, I didn’t mean it really. It was more like I was so overwhelmed and so hurt or so afraid. That was just the thing to say that would have me feel like there was some semblance of control, or at least I could leave first, because I was afraid of being left.
Dr. Frankie (17:33)
I was right there with you. I mean, in my marriage, same thing. And a lot of this is about slowing down, being able to self-reflect and acquiring skills, getting help.
You know, whether it be through self-help books, seeing a therapist, a coach, but really learning some skills and understanding that’s something you can’t say. You can’t threaten like that. That’s it, absolutely no.
Shana James (18:14)
Yeah, it erodes the trust and the foundation of a relationship.
Dr. Frankie (18:17)
Yep. And I was a therapist back then. I was in…
Shana James (18:21)
And I was a relationship coach…
Dr. Frankie (18:25)
So, you know, we’re human. We are not perfect, none of us and even those of us who have been schooled year after year still make these mistakes, because relationships are scary and it’s complicated, and our history confuses us.
Shana James (18:29)
That’s a really good way to put it. We get confused.
Dr. Frankie (18:46)
Yeah, and then you’re not stable. You’re losing your footing. I had a conversation with my daughter a few weeks ago and I got so dysregulated. It brought up all this old stuff between my mother and I. And, 45 minutes later, my son’s like, “mom, you’re still on the phone?” And I’m like, my gosh, I am talking in circles… lose grounding.
Shana James (19:11)
That has me really think about how I feel in some ways like I’ve been dysregulated since my kid started middle school last year, and so it’s been a year and a half of feeling like I’m back in the middle school mentality and all of that fear of not belonging, and all of that.
I’m like, wow, people go through relationships and you can go through years of being dysregulated in certain ways, and not even really have that as a framing, that that’s impacting your relationship.
Dr. Frankie (19:42)
Or the opposite, right? Things could be going really well. You’ve been doing your work. Life isn’t throwing you curveballs to the point where you’re being thrown off kilter. And then all of sudden, your kid tries to individuate at 19 like mine, and all of sudden, all of this stuff gets stirred up.
I’m like, holy shit, I thought I worked on all of this. Three decades of therapy!
Shana James (20:08)
Yes, here it is again.
Dr. Frankie (20:11)
Over two decades of practice as a clinical psychologist and this is happening right now? So it can go either way.
Shana James (20:18)
Yeah. I’m glad to hear you say that that happens to you too.
Dr. Frankie (20:25)
It happens. The takeaway here is to have compassion for ourselves — self-love and compassion.
Shana James (20:35)
Yes! Is there anything else you want to say about vulnerability and how you practice now? The theme of the podcast is practicing love, and practicing being vulnerable is one of the ways I see you practicing love.
Dr. Frankie (20:37)
Absolutely. I really, I try to lean into love. I grew up with both parents very critical.
They could have a sharp tongue, they were mean. So for me, it’s easy to just say something mean, to be cutting, to be below the belt. I mean, I haven’t done this stuff really in years. It took me years to realize that is so toxic.
Shana James (21:21)
And so automatic when it does happen that way. I had that example too.
Dr. Frankie (21:22)
That’s so toxic. Yes. So it takes years of really working on it to gain control of that and to no longer have an automatic response that is going to poison your relationship.
So what I know, what really helps me is to have a mantra in my head: lean into love, Frankie, just lean into love, lean into kindness, open your heart because again, it’s easy for me to take my toys and go home.
Pack it up and go home, because you’re being mean to me. This is another thing. I think when boundaries have been broken in our childhood, where our parents don’t respect our boundaries, our voices aren’t heard, we’re dismissed, we’re minimized, there’s a real sensitivity around not feeling heard, not feeling seen, I don’t matter here.
And there’s this defensiveness that comes up because you become so protective as an adult. I’m protecting that little Frankie, you know?
But I remind myself, lean into love. And the other thing is this person isn’t deliberately trying to hurt me or harm me. This is not intentional.
Shana James (22:43)
Yes. So beautiful to be able to remind yourself.
Dr. Frankie (22:46)
They come with their own shit.
And we are holding up a mirror for each other, right? We’re reflecting what we see. So it’s what we’re giving. So that’s it. Lean into love and recognize the humanness in all of us.
Shana James (22:54)
Yes. I wrote about that in my book Honest Sex. I talked about how I have my mom’s voice in my head and she is very cutting. And so for a really long time when I first got married, it was just there on repeat, like on tape, CD or now on whatever we want to call it, over and over in my head and I finally realized that, that’s not me.
That’s not actually my voice. And I don’t have to choose to have any of that come out of my mouth. And I can actually, like you said, lean into love and I can get curious and I can notice, there is a shitty judgment in my head.
So what’s really going on there? What am I scared of?
Or what would be more vulnerable to say? What’s most vulnerable about this situation right now?
I can bring that instead of the shitty one in my head that wants to just cut everybody down and burn everything down.
Dr. Frankie (24:11)
And what does that do? You increase your vibration. I know it’s a woohoo, I’m so not a woohoo practitioner, but it’s…
Shana James (24:20)
I love your range. Because I can go woo, I can go as woo as you want to go.
Dr. Frankie (24:25)
That resonates for me just like when you’re leaning into love, and you’re spreading kindness and you’re being considerate of others and all that, good people are drawn into your orbit, people who have a higher vibration and you’re increasing each other’s vibration.
So we know when we’re going under the belt, like we know when we’re doing shitty things. Instead of being critical of yourself just be like, okay, I can do better. I’m gonna redo right here.
And you can always say: Let me… I retract that. I’ve done that many times.
Shana James (25:07)
I just taught that to one of my couples yesterday.
Here’s the redo tool. You can ask for a redo or you can say you’d like to have a redo.
Dr. Frankie (25:16)
Yes. And in couples therapy, even I go sometimes with my partner, and our therapist will say, okay, so it went down that way. Why don’t you have a redo? Here’s your opportunity to apologize or whatever. Take responsibility.
Because the other thing is we’re creating new neural pathways. Got to practice. We have neuroplasticity, right? Flex that brain. And for those of us that are midlife or older, you better keep flexing that brain to keep it working.
Shana James (25:45)
Seriously, because otherwise we’re losing it.
Dr. Frankie (25:51)
So I want to encourage listeners to just get out there, embrace growth and change. It’s a beautiful thing, but it’s scary as hell and you’re not alone.
Shana James (26:02)
No, definitely not alone. Definitely not alone. And there’s something about when you have someone who you feel safe with, to be able to be scared together is actually such a beautiful thing. It creates so much intimacy.
Dr. Frankie (26:19)
It does, but that person may not admit it, right? They may not admit it with words. They may not acknowledge it. But you can see past that. You see when people are hurting each other, they’re actually hurting, right? So they may not be able to verbalize, but if you can…Step up to the plate and model.
Just model. Even if it doesn’t even feel real, like you’re having to be performative sort of, you gotta fake it till you make it. Just act as if, act as if you’re not internally raging. I don’t want to struggle. No, I feel this right now. You observe it. You notice it.
Shana James (26:52)
Fake it till you make it.
Dr. Frankie (27:10)
Manage to stay really as calm as you can and stay grounded if you can. And there’s all sort of grounding techniques. You can look online and try to stay embodied, and wrap that person you love in tons of love and yourself while you’re at it.
Shana James (27:25)
And yourself, exactly. Thank you so much. Anything else you want to add before we wrap up, before we get to how people can find you?
Dr. Frankie (27:35)
One more thing. I want to encourage you to keep working on your relationship. If there’s a lot of good there, keep working on it, because there are so many people I see in my practice that are wanting so badly to jump ship. And just because it’s hard doesn’t mean it’s wrong. There’s a lot of social media messaging in our pop culture and television.
All of that tells us that you deserve the best and, if it’s right, it should be pretty easy. None of that is true. We do deserve really good things, but the best, don’t, it’s not all unicorns and butterflies.
Shana James (28:11)
Yeah, it’s a fantasy. And I do think for me, it has gotten easier and easier the more I can be vulnerable and consciously communicate and all of that.
But again, there’s a fantasy of easy. And I don’t think that really does justice, or honors that relationships are, can be messy.
Dr. Frankie (28:46)
Agreed. I think they are messy. If you’re in it long enough, it’s gonna get messy. And then it’ll get, it might get to calm waters and then it’s gonna get messy again.
Shana James (28:51)
Right waves come in, waves go out, waves come in, waves go out. Awesome. Okay, where can people find you if they want to work with you?
Dr. Frankie (29:00)
You can find me all over. I’ve got a YouTube channel where I talk all about relationships and sex and all that good stuff. And that’s Dr. Frankie Bashan. And I’ve got social media. I’m on TikTok and Instagram and Facebook. And I’ve got a website, a couple — littlegaybook.com is for queer folks who are looking for love. I have matchmaking and dating events all over the country.
And then for the straight folks, you can find us at drfrankie.com or littleblackbookmatchmaking.com. Definitely reach out if you’re single and you want to find a quality partner who is relationship minded. Yeah. Such a pleasure, Shana. Thanks for inviting me on. I hope we see each other physically in the same space again, doing something really cool together soon.
Shana James (29:44)
Me too! Thank you so much for being here to talk about how to love a strong and independent woman. So good to be with you again.
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