Today’s Practicing Love and Man Alive podcast guest, Dr. Fred Rabinowitz, talks about how he navigates independence and connection in his relationship.
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Show notes
Every client I’ve worked with, in some way or another, explores the balance of connection and independence in their relationships. Sometimes this exploration is painful, because even though we love someone, we may want different amounts of connection and independence. It’s rare for people to want the same amount of time together and apart, and as a result people can feel rejected, anxious, uncared for, or even smothered.
Do you tend to want more or less connection or independence than another in your relationships? And do the partners you’ve chosen want more or less than you?
Have you been able to talk about this and ask for what you need, or have there been fights and conflicts about this?
No one is wrong or bad here. And with healthy communication this can be navigated with care and love. But if you aren’t aware of what you want, or you’re afraid to ask for more (or less) on either end of the spectrum, you may find relationships challenging.
Today’s Practicing Love and Man Alive podcast guest, Dr. Fred Rabinowitz, talks about how he navigates independence and connection in his relationship, which can also be seen as agency and communion. He also brings his wisdom about men, and their tendencies in relationships, from decades of teaching and doing individual and group therapy.
Fred is a psychologist and professor at the University of Redlands. He is a key architect and author of the American Psychological Association’s first-ever Guidelines for Psychological Practice with Boys and Men. He has also written Deepening Group Psychotherapy With Men, Breaking Barriers in Counseling Men: Insights and Innovations, and Man Alive: A Primer of Men’s Issues, which is renowned for capturing the problems and conflicts encountered by men in America.
In our deep and multidimensional conversation we discussed…
- The relationship and life satisfaction that comes from being your own best friend
- How trying to be in control is often a reaction to, or avoidance of, being vulnerable
- The power of defining your reality
- Appreciating your partner for their uniqueness, rather than seeing them as a way to get all your needs met
- Becoming aware of your relational needs
- How to respond consciously when you don’t feel understood
- What it looks like for men to have strength with heart
- Male conditioning + how men often have as much depth as women, but not the vocabulary
- Actively bringing intimacy, value, and care to interactions, rather than expecting others to do so
- How needs can be met in different ways in different environments
Fred is a down to earth and humble man, whose way of living and engaging with people inspires me. He has a lot to teach men, and helps those who love men understand the culture’s impact on masculinity, and how to create healthy dynamics.
If you want more when you’re done with this one, check out this Man Alive podcast episode on building Healthy Masculinity.
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Connect with Dr. Rabinowitz
Bio:
Dr. Fred Rabinowitz is a psychologist and professor at the University of Redlands. He is a key architect and author of the American Psychological Association’s first-ever Guidelines for Psychological Practice with Boys and Men. He has also written Deepening Group Psychotherapy With Men, Breaking Barriers in Counseling Men: Insights and Innovations, and Man Alive: A Primer of Men’s Issues.
Transcript:
Shana James, M.A. (00:04)
Hello and welcome to this episode. This is going to be a joint episode of Practicing Love and Man Alive! We are going to talk about many things, including healthy independence in relationships.
I’m excited because what I’ve been doing with Practicing Love is interviewing experts on their struggles in love, and what they’ve learned, and what they’re now practicing. And I couldn’t not do this as a joint episode with Man Alive because I have Dr. Fred Rabinowitz here, who wrote a book called Man Alive a couple of decades ago.
You’ve been in the field of men’s work, writing books about deepening psychotherapy for men, and actually doing psychotherapy with men. And we’ve got to use all of your wisdom here. So thank you for being willing to be in both a vulnerable personal and professional role. Thank you
Fredric Rabinowitz (00:59)
Thank you for having me.
Shana James, M.A. (01:00)
Great to have you. Alright, let’s start with the personal. Can you tell us a little bit about what kind of relationship are you in, or is there anything notable about your relationship now or how you got here?
Fredric Rabinowitz (01:17)
It’s a big story, but I’m married. I met my current wife, Janet, back in 1987 in an accidental encounter where I was going to a bioenergetics workshop up in Whistler, British Columbia. So this is actually kind of a fun story. I went to the condos where I was supposed to stay. And they said to me, Fred, sorry, we don’t have your room. Tomorrow we’ll have one, so we’re gonna put you up in this hotel downtown in downtown Whistler, which is a ski resort.
And so I said, okay, whatever. I’ve been traveling all day. I went down there and I had a roommate who was asleep at the time. It’s about 9.30, 10 at night. So I put my stuff in and I’m starving. So I walked down into the middle of town. It’s a little town, a ski resort. I saw some lights on in this place that looked like a restaurant.
I walked in and there’s Janet sitting at the bar, having a glass of wine, talking to the bartender. And I say, “can I get something to eat here?” She owned a restaurant across the street and she was on a 10 minute break cooking for the next day, because she had a breakfast and lunch place.
It was like a total fate thing. We started talking and I got to eat and, and she’s like, I have to go back over to my place. I said, I’ll walk over with you. So we continued talking and ended up having this really hot affair for the week.
Shana James, M.A. (03:17)
Affair meaning not that you were cheating on other people but…
Fredric Rabinowitz (03:25)
Yeah, I was single, she was single.
So I go to the workshop and then in the evening, catch up with her and we had a really nice sexual relationship. And the whole idea for both of us was that this is just for this week. I’ll never see you again. This is it. And so it allowed both of us, because of those parameters, to just be open.
Shana James, M.A. (03:47)
Mm-hmm, yeah. You’re not needing to impress someone if you’re not trying to make them your partner.
Fredric Rabinowitz (03:54)
Right. It was just more like, let’s enjoy the week, and she had been divorced. I had been divorced. So we had been around, but hadn’t really had that connection in a while. And that was in 1987.
Shana James, M.A. (04:04)
Amazing. Did either of you have kids from your previous marriage?
Fredric Rabinowitz (04:15)
No, no, no kids.
So I left, said goodbye, never see you again probably. And then about two months later, it was October of that year, I was thinking about her and I had her phone number and I called her. said, hey, I was thinking about you. And she said, I’m gonna be in Mexico, but I could stop by maybe in California and see you on the way back. And I said, yeah, let’s do it.
So that was like our next kind of thing. We long distance dated for a while.
Shana James, M.A. (04:49)
Okay. I’ve been divorced myself and I know that there are many things that can come into the dynamic, right? From, is this even worth it? To, trust issues, to whatever. Would you say that either one of you came in less than whole…which I think we all do, but, you know what I mean.
Fredric Rabinowitz (05:18)
Yeah, I think for both of us had I been a permanent resident of where Janet lived, I’m not sure she would have been as open with me, though I think for her it was a release in some ways, and for me too because I was away. I didn’t really have to worry about the kind of the consequences of all of that. I had been doing my own therapy.
The divorce that I came out of was when I was in grad school. And it was someone who I had met in college and we stayed together, and we sort of split apart and then ended up back together in Columbia, Missouri, where I was doing my grad program. She was also doing the grad program there. And it never felt quite right to me. We went through the whole process. We got married.
Shana James, M.A. (06:16)
It doesn’t sound like it was like a horribly bad, awful breakup?
Fredric Rabinowitz (06:21)
No, well, this speaks to my development in a relationship, I was much more dependent, I would call it a dependent person. She was very assertive and so she was really good at saying, you should do this or you should do that, or say more about that. So I was just very reactive in that relationship.
And I knew that I didn’t have the balls to get out of it either. So I felt kind of stuck there. And then this is an ironic thing. She ended up cheating on me and I found out about it. And all of a sudden I had to get out of jail free card and I took it.
Shana James, M.A. (06:53)
Interesting. You used it, you took it. Well, this can transition into a struggle you’ve had because it sounds like at least back then…I don’t know if you’d say it continues now but…there was the theme of, I didn’t have the balls to actually say what I wanted or needed – I went along with things. Maybe even you were drawn to powerful women for that reason.
Fredric Rabinowitz (07:33)
Yes, that’s a good interpretation. And I also had this sense that when she betrayed me, I felt like I had permission at that point to just do whatever I needed to do. And so I got out of that. I got out of the marriage. We divorced.
Shana James, M.A. (07:48)
And interesting that it took something that big for you to feel like, I can take care of myself, or I can do what I need to do.
Fredric Rabinowitz (07:56)
Exactly. So I had about a year there where I was single. I dated a woman 10 years older than me. I kind of experimented and then came out to California on a one year visiting professor job thinking, I just want to go out there and make my life, whatever it’s going to be, to be on the journey. I didn’t know anybody. I knew one friend out in this area and it was just me and my dog.
Shana James, M.A. (08:32)
Sounds great.
Can we stay on the theme of struggle? And we can talk about weaving in what you’ve seen with men also , because you’ve worked with thousands of men, and know how men identify, and what men learn and don’t learn, and also your own personal journey.
Would you say that struggle around speaking up for yourself, or claiming what you need, would you say that’s one of the biggest struggles or do you want to talk about a different one?
Fredric Rabinowitz (09:02)
Different guys express it in different ways. I tend to be a nice guy. I tend to be supportive. I’m a psychologist. As a young man, I listened to my mother. I know, she had her own issues and sometimes I was the one she confided in. I was the catcher on the baseball team. So I had to calm down the pitchers in high school.
So I had this sense that I was going to end up in a people oriented world. But what I didn’t have was a sense of where I stood. I was really good at reading where other people were at. And so in that first marriage, I was good at figuring out what she wanted me to be. And I was willing to do that.
And I work with guys who are more passive in that way and allow their partner to define what that relationship is about. And they end up depressed or unhappy or drinking and end up needing to process all that. I’m good with those kinds of guys.
Shana James, M.A. (10:11)
You can have those kinds of conversations because you can relate to some of that.
Fredric Rabinowitz (10:30)
Exactly. And then the other guys, at the other polar end are the guys that are so afraid that they take control of the relationship, and they’re the ones who define what’s going to happen in the marriage or in the relationship.
And they find they’re unhappy as well because they want their partners to be more with them, and feel more connected, but they don’t realize that part of what they’re doing is pushing that person away or shutting them down. And I understand that position, but that’s not healthy independence in relationships.
Shana James, M.A. (10:38)
I love what you just said. You just quickly said it was that they’re so afraid that they take control. So it sounds like you see that underneath taking control there is fear and anxiety.
Fredric Rabinowitz (10:49)
Right. Yes, totally. And that’s one of things I think gets misread with men, because even controlling, powerful, whatever kind of men oftentimes are doing that more as a reaction to not wanting to be vulnerable, because they’ve been hurt, because they’ve been wounded in some way.
My style of being more open and trying to do what someone else wants is also a way to protect vulnerability.
Shana James, M.A. (11:16)
Yes, for sure.
Fredric Rabinowitz (11:30)
I’m not going to reveal anything or do anything that’s going to get me in trouble. So I will play it safe. And obviously the combination of the two are really important.
The combination of being able to say where you’re at, be vulnerable enough that you could get hurt, but also open to where the other person is coming from… There are component parts here that need to be as a whole man. I need to have all of that.
Shana James, M.A. (11:56)
Yes. And then that leads me to wonder, how have you worked with that in yourself? And how have you worked with that with the many, many men you’ve counseled in groups and individual sessions?
Fredric Rabinowitz (12:18)
Yeah. I think for myself, that journey for me to go to California by myself was my statement of Fred, you’re going to define your reality. You’re going to have no one to rely on to tell you what to do. And so you’re going to go into this new environment and you’re going to create something. So for me, life’s a journey and I embrace that the whole way. I still feel that.
And everything, as I look back, makes me believe in that. I’m not necessarily religious, but I’m also very much like, if I trust myself in the present, if I trust where I’m going and make decisions, and I’m willing to learn from my experience, then this is an amazing experience.
This whole trip, whatever happens…and that makes me less afraid to be vulnerable. It makes me less afraid to say where I’m going. It makes me less afraid to confront someone when it feels like there’s a mismatch or a disconnection.
Shana James, M.A. (13:05)
I love that. Can you speak to to how that happens in your marriage, when there are those moments?
Fredric Rabinowitz (13:27)
Yeah. And by the way, Janet is from Western rural Western Nebraska. She grew up on a 400 acre farm. And went to a one room country schoolhouse. I grew up in Philly and I ended up in the suburbs, but I grew up in the city and went to high school in a very urban area and have a Jewish background.
She’s not Jewish. So, I ended up with someone who is very different from me. And part of that was, I think part of that safety that I don’t have any of the expectations of her, or she doesn’t have expectations of me, in the same way as if we grew up in the same town.
Shana James, M.A. (14:06)
Very different. Interesting. So that created some safety for you.
Fredric Rabinowitz (14:22)
It created some safety and it’s also interesting to me. Now the downside is I don’t always feel understood. Sometimes I have to explain where I’m coming from because of my upbringing, because of the way I grew up in a Jewish family, with all brothers, and all this kind of stuff. And the same for her. Sometimes she just needs to be at peace. She needs quiet.
Her fantasy would be to go out on the plane and just watch the sunset. And so what I’ve had to learn is that, and this is relevant to the relationship thing, because it’s really interesting to me… We have intimacy, but we also have separateness and she is very supportive of me being fully myself and doing whatever I want.
I don’t feel any restriction on my life. And I do the same for her.
I mean, she may feel some restriction, just out of her own issue, her own needs. But from my perspective it’s, whatever you need to do, you do. And we will make dates and come together to be together.
Shana James, M.A. (15:37)
So it’s more intentional when you come together versus we’re just always gonna be together?
Fredric Rabinowitz (15:49)
Yeah. And I see guys a lot of times who are either bummed out that their partner doesn’t want to hang out with them. Or that they don’t have that kind of instant understanding of each other. Or once the sex part isn’t as hot, they just feel like they’re not that interested.
Shana James, M.A. (16:01)
Okay, tell us what you do with all of that because it’s natural to go through all of these different phases. And I do believe that sex and intimacy can flourish for our lifetime. It looks different in different ways, but it’s such a common thing to come up against these edges.
Fredric Rabinowitz (16:20)
I agree. And that’s where I’m going with this is that when I did a lot of my own therapeutic work – I was in some groups. I did some bioenergetics. I did my own individual therapy and I’ve been running this men’s group for 38 years and doing my practice – And I’ve seen a lot of guys.
One of the truths that I’ve learned is that one person can’t meet all your needs. I mean, that’s one of those basic things and everybody says it, but what does that really mean? How do we have healthy independence in relationships?
So for me, knowing yourself well enough to know what your needs are is important. And a lot of guys haven’t really explored that. And so they act out and then after the fact think, I guess I needed that.
Shana James, M.A. (16:56)
Yes, that is a big thing that I work on with my clients who are men – what do you actually want? And many haven’t thought about that – haven’t given themselves permission to think about it.
Fredric Rabinowitz (17:18)
Exactly. And the other part I’ve learned is that I can get my needs met by lots of different people, in different ways, in different environments. And so I bring myself to wherever I go, my presence. And this is something more recent too, it’s like I’ve begun to realize, I feel like I bring value. I bring intimacy. I bring connection to wherever I go.
And so I’m not alone. I don’t feel lonely in that.
Shana James, M.A. (17:56)
That is so powerful, that stance of “I bring it.” I’m not just out there hoping for it. I actually bring it with me.
Fredric Rabinowitz (18:01)
Right. I bring it. And that’s why I think I’m a good therapist. That’s why I think I’ve been doing the group for so long. I think that’s why I’m a good professor, because I care about the students. I’m interested in their world. I like the interaction.
If I’m just walking to a coffee shop and somebody’s in there, I’ll talk to them. So there’s this sense that I can get my needs met in a lot of different ways. And therefore I take the pressure off my partner.
Shana James, M.A. (18:30)
I was thinking about that when I was in my 20s and I used to go to these all night dance parties, which I don’t do anymore. And there was a group of us, and I watched how the people who seemed to have the most enjoyment weren’t standing there hoping and waiting. They were creating experiences for other people. They were bringing what you were saying, that vulnerability, the intimacy, the question: “what do you want out of tonight? Let’s go create that together.”
Fredric Rabinowitz (19:01)
Right, right. It’s a more active approach. But it’s also one where I don’t have expectations. I might talk to somebody who’s really quiet, or I might talk to someone who really surprises me by what they say. Or I may just feel like one day I’m the one who gets kind of interrogated. I’m like, whoa.
Shana James, M.A. (19:15)
Yes. Even that sounds like you find that interesting. Like, everybody can be interesting. You can have these different experiences.
Fredric Rabinowitz (19:34)
Right, I’m open to the experience. Exactly. And so one of things I’ve learned over time is what my needs are relationally, and I can get those in different spots. So I have different groups of people who I do different things with. And I have a partner who says, great, I’m glad because I know I can’t meet all your needs.
Shana James, M.A. (20:00)
Does that extend to sexual needs, or you’re monogamous in that way?
Fredric Rabinowitz (20:06)
I’m monogamous in that way, but I get myself out there. I have to be willing to encounter some of that kind of attraction. I feel like, I’m going to guess a number here, there are about 50 to 60 heterosexual women who I think I could be with.
But, I’ve already made my choice about that. And so what I can do when I encounter people like that is just enjoy the energy. And that’s where I go with it, versus I’ve worked with guys who have been divorced like seven times and, just have a hard time.
Shana James, M.A. (20:46)
Yeah. trying to get the right one, the next one will be more perfect somehow.
Fredric Rabinowitz (21:01)
Right. Or it’s more exciting. Here’s a new one. I get that a new person’s always going to be a little more exciting because you don’t know them.
Shana James, M.A. (21:04)
Okay. So how did you get to the place where you recognize that yes, a new person could be more exciting, but…what are you valuing more than that?
Fredric Rabinowitz (21:21)
I think ultimately I’m valuing my groundedness. I’m valuing that I’m on a journey. I’m valuing that in my world, at least if I act out sexually, that may have consequences that I’m not necessarily, prepared to deal with. I think if people who are in polyamorous relationships, or who are comfortable or both people talk about that’s okay, then that’s okay.
Shana James, M.A. (21:53)
Right. If it’s a conscious choice together, that’s great.
Fredric Rabinowitz (21:57)
Exactly, exactly. And what I find is that even the energy, and, I’m open with guys, I’m open with women, but the energy of attraction is not necessarily all about the physical attraction. It’s about that psychological, emotional connection that I feel with a person.
Shana James, M.A. (22:18)
Yes. I think that’s beautiful. It’s so multi-dimensional. And I talk about in my book how sex can be all of those dimensions too. I write about the difference between four dimensional sex versus one dimensional sex. Four dimensional sex, and sex not just being intercourse, but the 4D sex being the energetic, the emotional, the spiritual, all those different ways that we can connect with someone.
And I love hearing you talk about how you’re going out into the world…this is how I’m hearing it, so correct me if I’m wrong…You’re going out into the world, you’re bringing your vitality, your energy, your care, your capacity to connect with people and be intimate, and you’re creating an amazing life for yourself, rather than waiting for it to happen.
Fredric Rabinowitz (23:07)
Yes, I would say that’s for sure and I think that’s my growth. I feel like my growth has gone from waiting around like you said, for someone to notice me or to be attracted to me, or to engage me. I think the work I’ve done on myself internally is that I’m my own best friend So I have a more of an internal sense of connection
Therefore, I can meet other people where they’re at, and get something from those interactions. But I don’t need it the same way because I have an inner dialogue. I have a complexity. I have lots of different sides to me, a lot of different parts of me that I know are there. And so it might be, when I’m talking to someone, that I feel sexual energy.
And that part of me is going to think, this would be great. And then I have the inner dialogue going on and just enjoy the energy – You don’t need to act on it. What happened with Janet when I met her all those years ago was that both of us had that channel, that door, still open because neither of us were in a relationship. And we were both open to that. Whereas I’m a complex person. I’m in a relationship. I’m a grandfather. I’m all kinds of stuff.
Shana James, M.A. (24:13)
Okay. How would you say, if we come back into your relationship with Janet, how do you keep that alive in that separation, the autonomy and connection? Anything else you can say, that gives inspiration for how people can keep their relationships alive?
Fredric Rabinowitz (24:44)
Yeah, I think it’s really appreciating your partner as a unique individual versus someone who’s there to meet my needs, or is there to meet my sexual needs, or is there to take care of me in some way. I see her as having her own unique journey and we have chosen to do that together.
And this is for me, I love that I can still explore, can still experiment. I can still go do things I enjoy doing and feel like she supports that. And I would do the same for her. I do the same thing. If she says, I want to go do this thing, or I want to take this class. I’m like, awesome. Do it. And when we are together, we are consciously doing it together. It’s a conscious choice so that there’s not this ambiguity of, hey, I wish we had sex and somehow I’m waiting to see if she’s going to want to, or whatever.
If I’m going to be assertive, then I have to say, “Hey, what are you up to? Here’s where I’m at.” And if she’s not there, I have to just be like, okay, not be like, “Oh, this sucks.” I think that part of me can say like, okay Fred, think about: Why is that need so important right now? So I have a little more of an internal dialogue.
Shana James, M.A. (26:29)
And it sounds like you recognize these different parts, and you’re not putting all your eggs in one part, right?
Fredric Rabinowitz (26:39)
Exactly. And for some guys, and again, this is where the male conditioning comes in, most guys have been taught in this culture that to be sexual beings, that intimacy is equated with sexuality versus intimacy being a connection. We make it a sexual connection and that has gotten a lot of guys in trouble.
A, because they might have a sexual connection and have no other connection.
Shana James, M.A. (27:13)
Right, I think that often is the case. Where then sex is a way to get those things met because it seems feminine or weak or something else to have intimate connection in a different way.
Fredric Rabinowitz (27:16)
The other thing I see with guys is this fear of vulnerability. And so, substance abuse, other ways of acting out, even acting out sexually sometimes, are ways that guys are trying to open themselves back up, because they’ve shut down. So It’s safe to be a tough, strong guy and you’re reinforced for it.
However, you have other needs. I see my two and a half year old grandson who’s pure. He doesn’t have it built in like that. And so he just feels things. He’s happy, sad. He wants to connect. He’s verbal. He shares what he’s feeling. And then we, as you know, in our culture, just kind of say, that’s not a real man.
Real men are tough and strong and have to shut down this sort of vulnerable side, and sex is when you get to express that.
And that’s a very limited way of being in connection.
Shana James, M.A. (28:39)
That is a limited way.
I had a question. As you were talking about how you can bring your desire to Janet, or you can say, “here’s why I’m at, where are you at?” You can be assertive and then, if she’s not there, you have this way of talking to yourself as inner dialogue, “okay, what do I want instead or where was that need coming from?”
I think a lot of men who I work with have this sense that if they’re rejected, especially sexually, it’s so vulnerable that they don’t even want to face it. Have you worked with men around that? And how so?
Fredric Rabinowitz (29:24)
Right. I think what I end up doing is asking them, and talking to them like I’m talking to myself, which is to say, “what was happening in that moment? Why was sex so important right then? What were you feeling? What were you needing?” And then after that, are there other ways to get some of your needs met?
Shana James, M.A. (29:40)
Right. Because I can imagine as you said that I started thinking, okay, well, I really wanted to connect. I felt alone. I felt unsupported. And then, as you understand that deeper layer, how do you get those needs supported so that it’s not just sex?
Fredric Rabinowitz (29:55)
Exactly. And that sex can be an expression of all of that, but it in itself isn’t the whole thing.
I do think that guys, again, our defense structure is set up so that, for a lot of guys, it’s to stay in control, be strong, don’t let anything bother you. And we start to numb out.
So a typical guy watching football. I’m a Philly fan, so I’m really happy about what happened.
I was at this party and everybody was pretty mellow, but when the team scored, everybody went wild. It was like, God, I love these guys, you know? And I think that’s why people love, why guys love sports, because it gives them permission to express themselves. They can be angry, they can be sad, they can be hopeful.
They can cheer. They can do all these things and it’s like cultural permission to be yourself and we need more of that, you know.
Shana James, M.A. (31:09)
Yes, I’ve never thought of that. How do we get more of it, or how do we give more of that to men?
Fredric Rabinowitz (31:17)
Well, I think you do it. I do it. I think to put ourselves out there and in a non-judgmental way, and say, I want to know who you are. I want to hear you. I want to see what you’re about.
I had a great men’s group last night. It was beautiful in terms of the way guys were sharing and one guy’s dealing with a loss. One guy’s dealing with conflict in his relationships. There were 10 guys in there. Everybody had something and they were being open about it, and getting support from the other guys. And that’s the kind of environment we create there so that….
Shana James, M.A. (31:58)
They don’t have to hide. They don’t have to be macho. They don’t have to have it all together.
Fredric Rabinowitz (32:02)
Exactly. And one guy’s really in a sort of depressed state. And instead of trying to fix him, there were several guys in the group who said, “I’ve been there. I know exactly what you’re feeling. Just feel it. Just talk to us about it.” Versus I think most guys would want to go get it together, fix it, “Definitely do this….”
Shana James, M.A. (32:15)
Yeah, I’ve got this book or that resource. I think that can happen in romantic relationships too. I think women aren’t set up to respond to men’s vulnerability with compassion. It’s often either fear or disgust. Or if we fix this, whatever gender, It’s like, okay, we’ve fixed this and we can get through this and then nobody has to be in these uncomfortable states.
Fredric Rabinowitz (32:54)
Exactly. I’m thinking of one guy who talked about how he went to couples therapy. He was talking about this last night with his wife, who’s a very emotional person. And he broke down in the couple’s session and shared a really deep feeling. And he was afraid. He felt a lot of shame about it. And both his wife and the therapist were super supportive and connected them. And he was like, wow!
And part of his story was that when he was a young boy, his younger sister got terminally ill and died and parents withdrew emotionally, and he had to be a good guy, had to be always there for them. He couldn’t upset them. And so he learned to be stoic, as a defense against just having somebody care about him. It was a way he got care because he wasn’t a pain in the ass.
I do think that sometimes guys, grow up in either the cultural environment, or the family environment, where they are basically told, don’t be a pain in the ass. And then the culture says, don’t be a girl, or don’t be whiny, or don’t be sad. And so they have to find ways…
Shana James, M.A. (34:09)
Very limited, right? What can I fucking be?
Fredric Rabinowitz (34:19)
What can I be, right? And then we give them, well, you can be a millionaire, or you could be a hard worker, or you can be, a sexual guy or something like that. Those are your options.
Shana James, M.A. (34:32)
Yeah, ouch. So painful. Thank you for being able to hold space for men, and for having the capacity to witness yourself and understand the complexity of being here, and being a man at this time on this planet.
I really appreciate it. Is there anything else you want to bring, either personally or from all of your experience, that you think would support people listening?
Fredric Rabinowitz (35:03)
Well, I think that we’ve gotten into a sort of bifurcated reality, especially with the last election. The next book I’m working, called Strength with Heart, and Daniel Ellenberg’s working on that.
The idea is that you can be a strong, tough, passionate man and also be an open, vulnerable, empathic human being at the same time, and that’s the next evolution. And right now, it’s almost like you’ve got to pick camps. I would say that we’re hopefully heading to a place where we can integrate both parts.
Shana James, M.A. (35:32)
Yeah, I want that. I think about that in terms of being a woman supporting men, and also being a woman supporting women, because I do think that we all need to learn how to make it safer for everybody to express and to be vulnerable, and to not then get boxed or storied into, “I guess this is who you are. You’re only that.”
I think I see that with women a lot, this fear of, if my rock, my man, the one who’s there for and strong for me…if he falls apart, then what’s left?
The reality is, if he falls apart, he comes back together. I fall apart, I come back together. We fall apart together, we come back. So yes, much more fluidity and less bifurcation in that way..
Fredric Rabinowitz (36:44)
Yep.
Shana James, M.A. (36:46)
Awesome.
Fredric Rabinowitz (36:46)
I appreciate you having me. It’s nice to be able to share and I appreciate what you’re doing to kind of put this out there.
Shana James, M.A. (36:52)
Thank you. Do you want people to find you? And if so, where would they find you?
Fredric Rabinowitz (36:58)
Just look me up on the internet. I’ve written enough books and have done enough things. One of the things I laugh about is that when one of the football players, Jason Kelsey retired from the Eagles – he was a fan favorite – he cried. And some people, sports writers, were giving him shit about that.
Shana James, M.A. (37:20)
Really?
Fredric Rabinowitz (37:28)
And so I got to be quoted in the New York Times to say that it’s okay for men to cry. And that was really sweet.
Shana James, M.A. (37:35)
Yeah, not even just okay. It’s part of our humanity, your humanity.
Fredric Rabinowitz (37:41)
I know, it was like he cared that much, that letting it go really was a loss, and he was expressing it and That’s so natural. Yes, exactly.
Shana James, M.A. (37:48)
What a great role model. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being here and talking about your active way of engaging in life, and healthy independence in relationships!
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