
Just because you’re attracted to, or fall in love with someone, it doesn’t mean your sexual styles or desired frequency of sex will be the same. Today’s podcast focuses on how to navigate style and desire discrepancies, to keep intimacy and passion alive.
If you’re not satisfied with your love or sex-life, and could use some insights into what makes a person want more of you, tell me more about yourself here and we’ll schedule a time to talk.
How to Keep Passion Alive, Even With Desire Differences: Show Notes
Just because you’re attracted to, or fall in love with someone, it doesn’t mean your sexual styles or desired frequency of sex will be the same.
This can be confusing, since most of us weren’t taught much about sex, and this is on the fringes of what gets discussed.
Today’s guest Marc Azoulay, is the founder of Men’s Therapy Online. He has worked with many men who face this challenge, in many different ways. Marc got honest about the style and desire differences in his marriage, and they don’t fall along the common gender stereotypes. Getting to see behind the curtain, into how he and his wife navigate these differences, is gold!
In this honest and important conversation we discussed…
- What you can do when there are discrepancies in sex drives or styles
- The platinum rule — relationships are about treating others how they want to be treated
- The shame barriers to asking for what you want in sex and intimacy
- Understanding one’s own, and another’s needs, as a crucial part of sexual satisfaction and relationship health
- Sex beyond the physical act
- What it takes to have sexual sovereignty
- How one’s ability to feel connected is impacted by societal conditioning
- Breaking the taboo — having open, vulnerable conversations to improve intimacy and pleasure
I think you’ll find Marc’s honesty refreshing and freeing, as you explore how to create a thriving love and sex life.
If you haven’t rated or reviewed the podcast, I’d be so grateful if you would. As I get the podcast up and running this year, this will help people find this important information.
Links:
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Bio:
Marc Azoulay LPC, LAC, CGP, ACS is the founder of Men’s Therapy Online, a community and healing hub for men who want to get back on their feet or take their lives to the next level. With the help of his team of licensed clinicians he provides ongoing men’s groups, individual counseling, and powerful wilderness retreats to his members. With a background in psychoanalysis, neuroscience, and Buddhism, Marc is able help men uncover and destroy the unconscious barriers that hold them back. His mission is to help men become the best versions of themselves and truly show up for their lives, relationships, and community.
TRANSCRIPT:
Shana James (00:01)
Hello and welcome to this episode of Practicing Love, Have the Best Love and Sex of Your Life After 40. I am thrilled to be here today with Mark Azoulay. Thank you so much for being here. Mark is a therapist and runs men’s therapy online and has a group of therapists who work for him. And I appreciate you for being in the trenches with men, having been there myself for the last 20 or so years.
I know that men struggle and that it cannot always feel safe to get the support they need. So thank you so much for being there.
Marc Azoulay (00:38)
Yeah, happy to be here. And I’ve always been, you know, a fan of your work too. And I agree. There are a lot of disaffected men out there who are lost, confused, angry. And they have a lot of power in this society. So I think the more mental health treatment and more understanding they can get, the better off everyone will be.
Shana James (00:54)
Agreed. Awesome, all right, can you tell us a little bit as we dive in about your current relationship and what kind of relationship you’re in?
Marc Azoulay (01:04)
Yeah, so I am in a heterosexual relationship. We’re newly married. We got married in June of 24, in our backyard in Colorado, which was awesome. We got married later in life. Both got married in our thirties. So I’m 34 right now. My wife, Caroline is 36. I had an extensive dating history before then, and she did not. She was in, I think, two, maybe three long-term relationships.
Shana James (01:12)
Congratulations.
Marc Azoulay (01:33)
…whereas I just dated a bunch and never was in any long-term relationship. So it was quite different coming into a relationship with each other.
Shana James (01:33)
Interesting. How long were you together before you got married?
Marc Azoulay (01:44)
We were together three years before we got married.
Shana James (01:46)
It wasn’t a question that I necessarily thought I was gonna ask people, but it gives a background and a sense of who you are and what your current life is. And I love that past history too – that you dated around a bunch, and she didn’t. Or that she had more longer term relationships. So interesting to come into a dynamic from different sides. I also want to acknowledge that you are not yet 40. And my sense of this show is it’s not really exactly age specific.
It’s anywhere in midlife, I see this opportunity for maturing and becoming more conscious and looking at love and sex with new eyes and a sense of, know, there’s actually more possible here than we realized when we were young. So thank you for bringing that to us.
Marc Azoulay (02:40)
Yeah, totally. I’m not. yet 40 but as a therapist. I work with a lot of people over 40 though. A lot of divorcees, which I’m sure we can get into later in the show, but people that are just in that exact range where the old pattern breaks down, usually around that time between 40-45, maybe 50.
Shana James (02:56)
Yep. It is interesting to see the patterns breaking down and that can be terrifying and heartbreaking. And at the same time, I often see there’s so much new and deeper that can come of it. So let’s talk a little bit about a struggle that you’ve had or even currently have. And then we’ll get into a little bit more about what you’ve learned and how you’re practicing it with your wife.
What’s one of the struggles that you faced?
Marc Azoulay (03:25)
Yes, what I want to talk about, I think it’s a little uncommon, which is that my wife has a higher sex drive than I do. And also because I mentioned that relationship history, she had a lot of practice having sex in a long term relationship and keeping that alive. Whereas I didn’t. So I had a lot of very exciting sex. I had a lot of I had more partners than she did, but I never got to that kind of long term thing. The longest relationship I had before marriage was like a year.
Shana James (03:56)
Right, you had the novelty, you had the spark, the newness, the novelty versus, yes, keeping it alive.
Marc Azoulay (04:04)
Right. I never got into the stuff you talk about in your book. I never got into actually having to talk about sex. I never got that intimate, frankly. It never got that deep where I had to express my needs or get into the more emotional, spiritual side of it. and that was very new for me, in my relationship with Carol.
Shana James (04:13)
So fascinating and I’m curious, as a therapist, if you’ve seen this too – that most couples have some sort of discrepancy in sexual desire. It’s usually not completely evenly matched. So there’s one person who’s wanting more, one person who’s wanting less. And as you’re acknowledging, oftentimes it is a man who’s wanting more in a heterosexual couple, but it’s not always the case. So again, I appreciate that you’re bringing something that may not often be talked about.
Marc Azoulay (04:54)
Yeah, absolutely. I think there’s a discrepancy in desire and I would also say in style. I think people have sex very differently and I find that once you get beyond the porn education, which shows one particular type of sex, there are all kinds of different ways. And yeah, turns out different styles work for different people.
Shana James (05:00)
Would you say you and your wife also have different styles or more just the level of desire?
Marc Azoulay (05:20)
Very different styles. And again, it’s very counter to the gender stereotype. She prefers the more kind of pornographic sex, rougher sex, more aggression with consent, of course. Whereas I’ve learned that I like a much gentler experience, a more soothing experience, less stimulating experience, where she wants as much stimulation as possible. I actually want more of a soothing experience.
Shana James (05:50)
Interesting, more intimate sounds like more connected or it doesn’t have to be connected because you can be connected in all kinds of physical intensity too, but it sounds like your heart is in it, or that you feel cared for, or things like that.
Marc Azoulay (06:07)
Yeah, I think more cared for. I think it is a style that I want more where I don’t have to feel in control all the time. Like I don’t I don’t like being submissive in the kind of BDSM style of like, you know, being dominated. I’m not into that. I also don’t like pain. I’m very low pain tolerance, but I do like being cared for. I think it’s a great way of putting it – being held, having it be slower and being a soothing, relaxing experience because in my life I’m a business owner and a therapist and I exercise a ton, so I’m looking for the opposite in sex. I’m overstimulated in my life. So I’d like my sex to be yeah help calm me down. That makes sense. Yeah.
Shana James (06:43)
Yes. I love hearing that and I love that you are speaking that out into the world, because again, I think it can be so rare for men to say, “hey, I like it this way, or this is out of the box of what is conventionally deemed as masculine.” Alright, how do you navigate this? It’s not an easy one.
Marc Azoulay (07:19)
No, it’s not an easy one. I mean, there’s all kinds of stuff I can talk about. We’ve been to therapists and done workshops and like really have invested in this thing, difference. I don’t wanna say it’s an issue, but a difference. But I think maybe a place to start that was the first hurdle was that I literally didn’t know this about myself because I was not in a relationship long enough to get there. It was a year, maybe two. And even then I was doing what a lot of men do –posturing. I was spitting game. I was doing the stuff that attracted partners. I was very dominant. I was not very aggressive, but assertive, and I still am those things. But in the sexual space, I was doing I guess what I learned– make sure she always comes first, take the lead, be in an initiating role, what I learned from other dudes and from porn, honestly. Just kind of playing out that script. And it wasn’t until I really started studying Tantra and talking to some Tantrica friends of mine where I realized I was pretty disconnected the whole time. I was very dissociated.
My orgasms didn’t feel anything more than just kind of like a relief, like, okay, it’s over. I didn’t enjoy being horny. When I was aroused, it was like, okay, just get rid of this. It wasn’t about enjoying or feeling powerful. It was like, this sucks. This is a obstacle I want to get rid of, right?
Shana James (08:48)
Like too much, too intense. We got to get rid of this energy, or climax so we can get on the other side and have that kind of relief.
Marc Azoulay (09:11)
Right, have the relief, go back to my life, and just get back on track or whatever. It felt like getting over an obstacle. And again, that level of disconnection, it was very performative and very service oriented, right? I think, like many guys, my ego was a part of it, it was how many orgasms I can make my partner have? And the intensity of the orgasms – it was like I was getting fed in a way by that, by kind of like the dopamine jackpot.
Shana James (09:27)
Yes.
Marc Azoulay (09:41)
But I wasn’t getting fed sexually, if that makes sense.
Shana James (09:44)
Right, this is so important, I think. And something you said before reminded me of the fact that just because you have this realization, that you’re focused on being more in service…I guess it’s not black or white, right? Just because you realize I don’t wanna be this, or I want sex to be a little bit more, soothing or caring, doesn’t then mean that you have to be submissive or, right?
There are so many different sliders, or so many different facets and ways that you can explore and experience intimacy and sex. And I could imagine that someone listening, if they’re having their own question of, do I even like the way I am having sex? It doesn’t just have to be that now you go to the opposite. There’s more there. Does that make sense?
Marc Azoulay (10:40)
Absolutely. To make it real for some of your listeners, the ideal sexual experience for me is like a massage almost. It’s partnered. We’re both in connection. So it’s not like I’m laying there doing nothing, right? But that kind of energy of like literally relieving tension, working through pain points, going slow, focusing on areas that need care, it feels more like a tune up maybe, I don’t know, or like a healing experience. Versus an aggressive or submissive output of sexual energy.
Shana James (11:10)
Yes. Okay, and so how do you navigate this with your wife when if she wants to be more dominated or she wants you to be more assertive, is there a way you go back and forth and try her way, then my way, or is there something in between, or how are you two navigating that?
Marc Azoulay (11:33)
Yeah. So there’s kind of two sides of that coin, right? So I think historically, and, still typically, we’re doing her style of sex. I can be aggressive. I can be, I can do all the King stuff. Like I’ve been in the BSM community. I can tread those waters and I can perform, and she enjoys that. I don’t get as much out of it, but I get something out of it. It’s not totally empty, but more often than not, I think it’s still defaults to that because that’s the type of sex she enjoys.
And that’s also on me because, as a man, I had to overcome a major kind of shame barrier to even ask for a gentler version, or to even, like I said, be aware of it and then be able to kind of vocalize what I was looking for.
Shana James (12:20)
Okay, so how do you get your needs met then, or desires? If you’re defaulting to her style, then what else happens?
Marc Azoulay (12:40)
Yeah. so I think the language of stimulation really worked well for us. I mentioned a little bit at the beginning of the show that she prefers high stimulating sex and sometimes overstimulating sex. Her perfect orgasm is just being overwhelmed by sensation, and really losing herself in that wave of sensation, right? Whether that’s with a toy or whatever it is. That also includes music and scent and candles and everything, right? It’s like if she can have every sense stimulated, she is like in her happy place.
Whereas for me, I want less stimulation. I want to have a focused experience. So, like I said, a massage is probably the best analog and we’ve used this kind of conversation where, for me, a good orgasm is like, if I am having a massage, she’s touching me, slowly rhythmically, with healing energy. And if I can just focus on her touch without anything else going on, Maybe lights, or low music, but what I’m looking for is like really being able to lose myself in a single deep loving sensation versus just getting every wire plugged into the outlet, you know.
Shana James (13:59)
So do you guys intentionally create that for you, knowing that the default is the other kind of sexual experience?
Marc Azoulay (14:12)
Yeah, for sure. I’ve have learned to be more vocal with that. And again, it’s my ongoing journey with my masculinity of saying, cause it’s hard for me. I’m a recovering nice guy who tends to minimize my own needs. So I work on it and it’s still challenging for me to say, Hey, I need a back rub right now. Or, would you like to rub my back? Or I’m feeling tense or Hey, is it okay if we just lie down and cuddle for a minute?
I’m a therapist so I think I have some advantage, but it still can feel not very masculine. You know, just from growing up as a millennial, watching a lot of porn. You don’t see that. You don’t see that in the sex education. And dudes don’t talk about that really..
Shana James (14:52)
No. It strikes me that in my book, I talked about expanding the definition of sex so that it’s not just genital stimulation and there is energy and there’s emotion and there’s soul and there are all these different things. And so, I could see in a relationship dynamic, and it sounds like this happens for you, where one of the kinds of sex you’re having is the more intense, hitting all the different senses… And one of the kinds of sex you’re having is more gentle (whether it is just massage or whether it is just cuddling or whether it is a sex that resembles massage and healing and just more gentle and caring)… I’m imagining that it could be like, well, the other one’s more like a bigger bang. So this one doesn’t count as much or feeling.
Do you know what I’m saying? There’s something in there where I could see someone feeling a missing, but it doesn’t sound like a missing the way you talk about it.
Marc Azoulay (16:12)
Yeah, I don’t feel like I’m missing anything. I mean, granted I did have the other side of sexual experience as well. I don’t think I’m miss anything. I mean, for me, it really is trying to get in touch with what my body needs, you know? Being a business owner again, exercising a lot, I store a lot of tension. I have intensity. I have tension. I’m working with dude’s emotions all day, whether that’s aggression or sadness or pain. I’m in a lot of intensity throughout the day. So for me, my counterbalance really is like a soothing experience. And also, if my job changes or my lifestyle changes, I might want a different type of sex. I’m open to that changing.
And I think when I was younger and dating all these different women, I did want that more intense sex, at least because there was like that chase aspect, right? There was the conquest aspect. There was this idea of I was dating above my arena, above my pay grade or whatever, right? I would get off on that.
So there was this sense of. I got the prize. But as a middle-aged man, those things aren’t as important to me anymore because I know I can have sex. I know I can date people. I proved that to myself.
Shana James (17:37)
Yes. How do you navigate the discrepancy in desire for the amount of sex? And again, some people listening may identify on either end of the spectrum. How do you two navigate that one?
Marc Azoulay (17:54)
This one is more on Caroline. And I think that her version of the work was similar to mine, admitting that she does need that. She was raised Catholic. Like I said, didn’t have a ton of sexual variety, although she had a lot of sexual experience, and asking was very difficult for her. Initiating was very difficult for her, and she even had some barriers, which I know a lot of men feel, like if she was initiating and I wasn’t into it, then she was like assaulting me or something. Like she was non-consensually having sex with me. Whereas I think, I’ll tell you if it’s a no. But, even if I’m like halfway in, I’ll get you off. It’s fine. I’m cool with that. So it took this trust building around her being able to ask me, and being able to say no.
Honestly, I say yes more often than not because I love her and care about her, and that’s the need. And like I said, I get something out of it. So I think a lot of the work was her learning how to initiate and learning how to just be very direct. As a side note, we are currently trying to have a baby. We’re trying to conceive, so that in some ways has trained us to be more vocal because there’s certain ovulation windows and you have to just hit them.
And there’s some level of strategy. You can’t just have sex every day because the sperm gets depleted. So you have to kind of pace it out. It’s a whole thing, but that has made us be very communicative around when and where and how we’re going to work sex into our day, because we kind of have to.
Shana James (19:23)
I remember so many of those moments and I remember one time actually tweaking my back because I was doing some kind of pose after having sex where it was supposed to have the sperm go in toward the egg. It’s such a crazy time when that’s happening.
Marc Azoulay (19:55)
Yeah, it’s a wild time and it’s hard to know what is good information because there’s a thousand books and we’ve read a handful of them. They’re all different. And we talked to doctors and they say they have all these measurement techniques, but none of them really work. And it’s like, you’d think since this is a science, we’d have this figured out.
Shana James (20:10)
I remember I used a device to put saliva on to see if I was ovulating more, and then the thermometer, and then all the things. Wow, I wish you both the best and I hope that it happens for you for sure. You’ll be an amazing dad. It sounds like part of the way you navigate the desire discrepancy (in this case it’s her) but that the person with the higher desire actually finds their own capacity to ask for what they want, and to not necessarily hear no as a rejection, but also to be able to hear no.
Marc Azoulay (21:04)
Yes, exactly. And I think for women, it’s harder. And Caroline is more of a submissive style. So her ask might be verbal, or it might be her bumping her butt against me. It might be her rubbing my back. It might be more subtle than., right? Because she doesn’t want to be domineering. So it’s also kind of an interesting wrinkle to it. She doesn’t want to be like a dominant person, but she wants me to do it.
Shana James (21:37)
Right. But she has to take responsibility for giving that initial bump, as you say. So what I’m hearing is that you’re a generous partner. You know that it makes her happy. You want her to have it. You also get something out of it, but it’s not necessarily the thing you want most. But you said, say yes more often than you say no.
I think there are times where I’ve heard from partners that they don’t necessarily want to, or they don’t want to as much as the other person does. So I’m curious how you frame that for yourself, and then if you have clients who are in those situations too?
Marc Azoulay (22:20)
Yeah, what I learned and I guess what I would say to the partners out there too is, for me, having sex with her in that way is not just about that way, right? It’s so that we can feel more connected days, if not weeks later. It’s so that we fight less truly. It’s so that I can look at her and smile more. If you want to get kind of romantic, there’s like an oxytocin release that happens for both me and more for her.
It raises more for women. But it does even out our relationship. And I think that, again, cause she’s a higher desire, she feels that tension more when she hasn’t had sex recently enough. I think she doesn’t really masturbate. So like the only time she’s having an orgasm is with me. So it’s something I think just for her health, and for the health of the relationship. It’s also about that for me. So it’s kind of a bigger picture than just putting out.
Shana James (23:22)
I love that. And I remember interviewing Alison Armstrong and her saying that at her age, I think she might’ve been in her 50s at that point, she talked about how she doesn’t necessarily have sex just for that moment. She has sex for what she knows it will do for her. Because at that moment, she doesn’t always necessarily want it, but she also knows that she will open, relax, feel less tension and all of those things.
I’m curious about your sense of the concept of sexual sovereignty because again, in relationships where one person has a higher desire, I often go back to that concept as a way to see that the other person isn’t necessarily responsible to meet your sexual needs. You can masturbate or self-pleasure. You can find other ways to use that sexual energy, or feel that orgasmic energy. But it sounds like that’s not happening in your relationship. So I’m curious how you think about that.
Marc Azoulay (24:23)
Yeah, I mean, I think there’s the golden rule –Which is to treat others how you want to be treated. And then there’s like the platinum rule, which is to treat others how they want to be treated. And I think that for me, is what a relationship is about. I’m obviously not perfect, but I think especially for long-term marriage and relationships is part of me compromising and understanding that she has needs and she has ways of being that I might never understand.
There are many needs she has that I don’t understand at all. And there’s many needs that I have that she doesn’t understand at all. And I think part of being in a long-term relationship, our ideals is that we learn to meet those needs.
I don’t feel trapped by it, or obligated, but I think there is some level of the promise and commitment that I’ve made to her to at least give it a shot, you know, at least do it more times than not. And if I’m really not feeling it, or if it feels violating, which again is very rare if ever, then it’s also on me to say no. But if it’s lukewarm, I can go with lukewarm. It doesn’t have to be perfect every time.
Shana James (25:30)
You can roll with it. I appreciate that. That sex doesn’t have to be some grand experience every time. And the platinum rule is to me a really beautiful way to be in a relationship, where you are considering the needs of the other person and the WE, not just how am I getting my needs or desires met, but what does my partner need to be happy? And how are we regulating each other, and staying connected, and creating more joy and pleasure for both of us.
Marc Azoulay (26:07)
Yeah, totally. I think the sovereignty thing is critical, especially with individuals that have sexual trauma. When people work with that, taking full control of their sex life, no questions asked, is really important. But where I go with that around sex and with everything, is if you’re completely sovereign all the time, you’re not in a relationship. I think that is one of the things that we do give up by choice. We do give that up by deciding to partner with somebody long-term.
There’s just going to be shit that I don’t want to do, but I got to do it. Ya know?
Shana James (26:38)
Yeah and I imagine that could be really edgy, and people listening might not have that same perspective. Or there could be a blend. It’s not black or white – like you are sexually sovereign or you are not.
I don’t know if it’s true, but I tend to imagine that women hearing this will feel more like if I give in, or I say yes when I don’t want to, that feels like me betraying myself. And so I’m appreciating you speaking to some of those shades of gray in between, that it’s not just black or white in that way also.
Marc Azoulay (27:14)
I agree. There’s a major privilege component and I’m not going to pretend to understand the female sexual experience because I think it is more vulnerable. I mean, you’re getting penetrated, so I think it’s a much more vulnerable position than the position that I’m in.
Shana James (27:30)
Yes, and as women get older and start having more pain or struggles that go with perimenopause and menopause, I think that can be more of an issue as well. It sounds to me like you’re doing what I always suggest, which is communicating. You didn’t get to that point in the relationships in the past when you were short term relationships. But now that it’s a long term relationship, I heard you say, you’ve invested in your dynamic, in your sex life and your relationship through doing these different courses and exploring this together.
Marc Azoulay (28:05)
Yeah, absolutely. Like I said, I’m more traditionalist in some ways. I think that there are commitments that we make to other people, And sex is just one arena. But for instance, I don’t really like going out to dinner with my in-laws. There’s some tension there in the family. But I go. Because I’m supporting her and I want to build our family.
Again, there are all these other reasons, like the dinner itself might kind of suck or be boring or whatever. But there are all these greater reasons why I’m going to do that, and I’m going to be friendly and I’m going to tell jokes and I’m going to ask them questions. I’m going to engage because I think like sometimes you gotta do stuff you don’t want to do. I guess that is what I’m trying to say.
Shana James (28:51)
Yeah, I think that’s a tricky one when we bring it back to sex. But what I appreciate about that is that it can open up conversations. I think a lot of times people with lower desire can use the, “I don’t feel like it.” to then not communicate or not have a conversation. Because I think a valid question is “what would have you feel like it?” Not from a place that the other person is pissed off and resentful, but more like, “hey, okay, so if this were to be pleasurable for you, if this were something you really enjoyed, what would you want?” Or “Are there other things that you want that aren’t sex?” Because like we said, it doesn’t have to be even tit for tat. You might want more cuddling and massage and emotional intimacy, and I might want more sex, and so how do we create both of those?
Marc Azoulay (29:48)
Yeah, totally. I’ll be a little presumptuous about maybe the female experience, so please check me on that. I think a lot of guys are probably similar to me where we are very dissociated during sex. And I think a lot of men are a little crude, masturbating with a vagina. And I imagine our female partners feel that. I mean, they feel that there isn’t a connection there. They feel like they could be anybody. They could be a warm body. They could be a fleshlight. They could be the guy’s left hand.
I mentioned that sex was not that connective, or enjoyable or exciting. And I think for men that’s in many ways the only sex we know how to have, because we are heavily, heavily defended from our own emotions. So we might not even know that there’s this whole other realm of connection. And what is even more of an obstacle is that when we feel it, we might be really afraid of it and want to shut it down.
So all this is to say I agree with you .It might be the type of sex that’s getting in the way. And I imagine many women haven’t ever had good sex, or ever had connected sex because most guys don’t know how to do that. You know?
Shana James (30:43)
I know it breaks my heart. It really does break my heart and it has me go back to thinking – if there are women or people who are listening to this, who feel like it’s just not working, it’s not the way you want it to be, or it’s not pleasurable, I hope this instigates having a conversation to be able to say, “I’m struggling here. The way that it’s going isn’t pleasurable for me, or it’s not working for me.”
I’ve played a game with my partner before where we ask what would make something even better? What would allow me to feel even more pleasure, because there are some moments where I might think yeah it’s good enough. I don’t need to rock the boat by saying something, or asking for something, but at the same time, when I do, I realize it’s a completely different experience to really feel like what I’m receiving is what I’m craving.
Marc Azoulay (32:04)
Yeah, it’s kind of like those peak experiences that really do push all the buttons. And create what you write about, the kind of spiritual, five dimensional level up around that. I think that’s really critical. And I think for the women out there, it’s to be a challenge, right? Take it or not. And you might lose your relationship, but it would be helpful to really hold the mirror up to your male partner and ask them “where are you right now?”
I had some early partners do that and I was too insecure, and I ended up dumping them, So there might be some kind of like side effect, but I think men, because again we’re privileged, we don’t ever get feedback. A lot of people are afraid of offending us, or don’t want to make us angry or mad. For good reason. But I think asking a guy, like I said, “where are you right now?” Or “where did you go?” Or “Hey, stay with me.” doesn’t have to be that aggressive. It’s just like trying to pull the partner into the present moment to move the sex towards something that is more enjoyable for you. Because I think once I started focusing on presence, the sex got a lot better for the women.
Shana James (33:17)
Yes! And I would encourage, in the way that you’re talking about, to do it with as much open heartedness as you can muster. Or with as much care or compassion, or whatever word we want to use to say it’s not about attacking or blaming or shaming or saying, “what’s wrong with you?” It’s an invitation. An “I’m here, and there’s more possible. We can actually explore this together. We can have more pleasure. We can have more intimacy. We can have more love. I’m inviting you into that.”
Marc Azoulay (33:53)
Yep. Cause I think the average guy is just running the program that we’ve watched in porn videos for 10 years, right? We are on autopilot and yeah, again I think the women really feel that.
Shana James (34:05)
Yeah, I know women feel it for sure.
Thank you so much for sharing more about what you’ve been practicing and how you and your wife navigate it, and for opening up in such vulnerable ways about what’s really happening for you. I’m really appreciating how rare it is to have these kinds of conversations.
We’re not sitting at the dinner table and saying, “all right, here’s what’s happening with my orgasm, here’s what’s happening with my level of desire.” I mean, you can know couples for years or decades and know nothing about their sex life or what they’re struggling with. So thank you for initiating this more vulnerable way of engaging around the topic of sex.
Marc Azoulay (34:56)
Yeah, thanks for doing the work you’re doing and creating platforms for these conversations. Because I agree, it’s still super taboo. And the thing I see, which I’ll allude to is that most education is porn, especially for men. So anything that is the real message is needed out there because there’s an overwhelming amount of message in the other direction.
Shana James (35:20)
Yeah thank you. Is there anything else you wanna add or anything you feel like we’ve left out?
Marc Azoulay (35:29)
I think we got it. I think we covered some really good bases there.
Shana James (35:34)
Great. Where can people find you and your work?
Marc Azoulay (35:38)
Yes, you can find me at menstherapy.online.com. It’s a healing hub for men who want to get themselves back on their feet or take their lives to the next level. It’s kind of our tagline there.
We offer something really different in that we’re working for the everyman. So for that kind of divorced dad, for the guy who lost a job, for a young man who feels lost and confused and really wants to take that next step but is put off by the Manosphere stuff that is out there right now.
We’re not super woo woo. A lot of men bounce off of therapists because they’re a little bit too soft.. So we don’t pull any punches. We’re here in support of you, to become the best man you can be. So the website is menstherapy.online and we’re at menstherapyonline on every single social media platform.
Shana James (36:30)
Awesome. Thank you so much.
Marc Azoulay (36:33)
Yeah, thanks a lot.
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