Love Podcast

#10: How to Be Less Irritated With Your Partner – Dr. Susan Campbell

January 16, 2025 by Shana James Leave a Comment

There’s no relationship where you won’t get irritated or annoyed, so it’s best to figure out how to deal with it. Today’s podcast shows you how to deal with irritation in a loving way that brings you closer with someone you’re dating, or in a relationship with.

If you’re not satisfied with your love or sex-life, and could use some insights into what makes a person want more of you, tell me more about yourself here and we’ll schedule a time to talk.

How to Be Less Irritated With Your Partner: Show Notes

It’s no secret that people can be irritating. 😅

I’m laughing because saying it that way is one of the fastest ways to push someone away.

The more conscious way to say this would be that we get irritated. Telling someone (or even thinking of it as) “YOU’RE IRRITATING ME,” makes others defensive, and doesn’t acknowledge the fact that someone else may have a totally different opinion. This makes it a subjective experience, rather than them being objectively irritating!

There’s no relationship in which you won’t get irritated, upset, hurt, or annoyed, so it’s important to learn how to navigate this with love. Poor communication can create painful resentment, or even break up a relationship, especially when it’s newer. And before you even talk about this, you have to be aware of the thoughts, feelings, and sensations you’re having, that come together as irritation.

It was such an honor to talk with today’s Practicing Love podcast guest, Dr. Susan Campbell. She is a therapist and the author of Getting Real, The Five Minute Relationship Repair, and many more books. She has been working in this field for 50 years and is a wealth of wisdom and love. Susan and I talked about what she does in her current relationship, where even though she’ s thrilled to be in it, she sometimes feels irritated. We also talked about …

Releasing egocentric patterns in relationships
How to navigate differences, and even get to unity
The need / habit to be in control and the impatience people often feel with others
What to do when two people trigger each other
What makes it hard to ask for what you want, and how to practice
How to make upsets lead to healing
Creating safe space
The powerful Five Minute Relationship Repair Process

If you’re someone who ever gets irritated (wink 😉), this is a great podcast to check out. You can also listen to more podcasts with Susan on the Man Alive podcast here:

The need for healthy anger in your life and relationships

Speak your truth without losing love or business

And if you haven’t seen it yet, my new quiz for figuring out what gets in the way of having the greatest love and sex of your life is part of a Midlife Love Giveaway. This is an amazing collection of gifts from inspiring coaches and therapists, to help single women create the foundations for the love they deserve. Each gift has been carefully curated to support their emotional, physical, and spiritual well-being.

>> Find out more and get your gifts here <<

You’ll be amazed at these incredible resources that will empower you to honor your worth, heal past wounds, and build the life and relationships you desire!

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Best love and sex of your life quiz

Get a Free copy of Honest Sex: A Passionate Path to Deepen Connection and Keep Relationships Alive.
Whether you’re dating or in a relationship it shows you how to take the self-doubt, struggle and shame out of your love life.

Honest Sex

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For Women: Modern dating doesn’t have to be a nightmare for women

Connect with Dr. Susan

SusanCampbell.com

Bio:

Dr. Susan Campbell has authored nine books on relationships and conflict resolution, has delivered hundreds of seminars and workshop internationally, and has counseled thousands of individuals and couples. In demand with the press, radio and TV to help interpret the status of contemporary human work and love relations, she has appeared on CNN’s NewsNight and Good Morning America and Dr. Dean Edell.

Accomplished in the business world, Susan has directed a think tank, run non-profit organizations, consulted to Fortune 500 companies, and guest lectured at the Harvard, Stanford, and UCLA business schools.

An avid adventurer and proponent of “living your life out loud,” she has made millions, lost millions, lived in other cultures, and spent two years sailing her 47-foot sailboat halfway around the world.

Some of her more well-known book titles are: The Couples Journey, Beyond the Power Struggle, Getting Real, Truth in Dating: Find Love by Getting Real, and The 5 Minute Relationship Repair.

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#9: How to Keep Passion Alive, Even With Desire Differences – Marc Azoulay

January 9, 2025 by Shana James Leave a Comment

Just because you’re attracted to, or fall in love with someone, it doesn’t mean your sexual styles or desired frequency of sex will be the same. Today’s podcast focuses on how to navigate style and desire discrepancies, to keep intimacy and passion alive.

If you’re not satisfied with your love or sex-life, and could use some insights into what makes a person want more of you, tell me more about yourself here and we’ll schedule a time to talk.

How to Keep Passion Alive, Even With Desire Differences: Show Notes

Just because you’re attracted to, or fall in love with someone, it doesn’t mean your sexual styles or desired frequency of sex will be the same.

This can be confusing, since most of us weren’t taught much about sex, and this is on the fringes of what gets discussed.

Today’s guest Marc Azoulay, is the founder of Men’s Therapy Online. He has worked with many men who face this challenge, in many different ways. Marc got honest about the style and desire differences in his marriage, and they don’t fall along the common gender stereotypes. Getting to see behind the curtain, into how he and his wife navigate these differences, is gold!

In this honest and important conversation we discussed…

What you can do when there are discrepancies in sex drives or styles
The platinum rule — relationships are about treating others how they want to be treated
The shame barriers to asking for what you want in sex and intimacy
Understanding one’s own, and another’s needs, as a crucial part of sexual satisfaction and relationship health
Sex beyond the physical act
What it takes to have sexual sovereignty
How one’s ability to feel connected is impacted by societal conditioning
Breaking the taboo — having open, vulnerable conversations to improve intimacy and pleasure

I think you’ll find Marc’s honesty refreshing and freeing, as you explore how to create a thriving love and sex life.

If you haven’t rated or reviewed the podcast, I’d be so grateful if you would. As I get the podcast up and running this year, this will help people find this important information.

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Connect with Marc

MensTherapy.online

Bio:

Marc Azoulay LPC, LAC, CGP, ACS is the founder of Men’s Therapy Online, a community and healing hub for men who want to get back on their feet or take their lives to the next level. With the help of his team of licensed clinicians he provides ongoing men’s groups, individual counseling, and powerful wilderness retreats to his members. With a background in psychoanalysis, neuroscience, and Buddhism, Marc is able help men uncover and destroy the unconscious barriers that hold them back. His mission is to help men become the best versions of themselves and truly show up for their lives, relationships, and community.

TRANSCRIPT:

Shana James (00:01)
Hello and welcome to this episode of Practicing Love, Have the Best Love and Sex of Your Life After 40. I am thrilled to be here today with Mark Azoulay. Thank you so much for being here. Mark is a therapist and runs men’s therapy online and has a group of therapists who work for him. And I appreciate you for being in the trenches with men, having been there myself for the last 20 or so years.
I know that men struggle and that it cannot always feel safe to get the support they need. So thank you so much for being there.

Marc Azoulay (00:38)
Yeah, happy to be here. And I’ve always been, you know, a fan of your work too. And I agree. There are a lot of disaffected men out there who are lost, confused, angry. And they have a lot of power in this society. So I think the more mental health treatment and more understanding they can get, the better off everyone will be.

Shana James (00:54)
Agreed. Awesome, all right, can you tell us a little bit as we dive in about your current relationship and what kind of relationship you’re in?

Marc Azoulay (01:04)
Yeah, so I am in a heterosexual relationship. We’re newly married. We got married in June of 24, in our backyard in Colorado, which was awesome. We got married later in life. Both got married in our thirties. So I’m 34 right now. My wife, Caroline is 36. I had an extensive dating history before then, and she did not. She was in, I think, two, maybe three long-term relationships.

Shana James (01:12)
Congratulations.

Marc Azoulay (01:33)
…whereas I just dated a bunch and never was in any long-term relationship. So it was quite different coming into a relationship with each other.

Shana James (01:33)
Interesting. How long were you together before you got married?

Marc Azoulay (01:44)
We were together three years before we got married.

Shana James (01:46)
It wasn’t a question that I necessarily thought I was gonna ask people, but it gives a background and a sense of who you are and what your current life is. And I love that past history too – that you dated around a bunch, and she didn’t. Or that she had more longer term relationships. So interesting to come into a dynamic from different sides. I also want to acknowledge that you are not yet 40. And my sense of this show is it’s not really exactly age specific.
It’s anywhere in midlife, I see this opportunity for maturing and becoming more conscious and looking at love and sex with new eyes and a sense of, know, there’s actually more possible here than we realized when we were young. So thank you for bringing that to us.

Marc Azoulay (02:40)
Yeah, totally. I’m not. yet 40 but as a therapist. I work with a lot of people over 40 though. A lot of divorcees, which I’m sure we can get into later in the show, but people that are just in that exact range where the old pattern breaks down, usually around that time between 40-45, maybe 50.

Shana James (02:56)
Yep. It is interesting to see the patterns breaking down and that can be terrifying and heartbreaking. And at the same time, I often see there’s so much new and deeper that can come of it. So let’s talk a little bit about a struggle that you’ve had or even currently have. And then we’ll get into a little bit more about what you’ve learned and how you’re practicing it with your wife.
What’s one of the struggles that you faced?

Marc Azoulay (03:25)
Yes, what I want to talk about, I think it’s a little uncommon, which is that my wife has a higher sex drive than I do. And also because I mentioned that relationship history, she had a lot of practice having sex in a long term relationship and keeping that alive. Whereas I didn’t. So I had a lot of very exciting sex. I had a lot of I had more partners than she did, but I never got to that kind of long term thing. The longest relationship I had before marriage was like a year.

Shana James (03:56)
Right, you had the novelty, you had the spark, the newness, the novelty versus, yes, keeping it alive.

Marc Azoulay (04:04)
Right. I never got into the stuff you talk about in your book. I never got into actually having to talk about sex. I never got that intimate, frankly. It never got that deep where I had to express my needs or get into the more emotional, spiritual side of it. and that was very new for me, in my relationship with Carol.

Shana James (04:13)
So fascinating and I’m curious, as a therapist, if you’ve seen this too – that most couples have some sort of discrepancy in sexual desire. It’s usually not completely evenly matched. So there’s one person who’s wanting more, one person who’s wanting less. And as you’re acknowledging, oftentimes it is a man who’s wanting more in a heterosexual couple, but it’s not always the case. So again, I appreciate that you’re bringing something that may not often be talked about.

Marc Azoulay (04:54)
Yeah, absolutely. I think there’s a discrepancy in desire and I would also say in style. I think people have sex very differently and I find that once you get beyond the porn education, which shows one particular type of sex, there are all kinds of different ways. And yeah, turns out different styles work for different people.

Shana James (05:00)
Would you say you and your wife also have different styles or more just the level of desire?

Marc Azoulay (05:20)
Very different styles. And again, it’s very counter to the gender stereotype. She prefers the more kind of pornographic sex, rougher sex, more aggression with consent, of course. Whereas I’ve learned that I like a much gentler experience, a more soothing experience, less stimulating experience, where she wants as much stimulation as possible. I actually want more of a soothing experience.

Shana James (05:50)
Interesting, more intimate sounds like more connected or it doesn’t have to be connected because you can be connected in all kinds of physical intensity too, but it sounds like your heart is in it, or that you feel cared for, or things like that.

Marc Azoulay (06:07)
Yeah, I think more cared for. I think it is a style that I want more where I don’t have to feel in control all the time. Like I don’t I don’t like being submissive in the kind of BDSM style of like, you know, being dominated. I’m not into that. I also don’t like pain. I’m very low pain tolerance, but I do like being cared for. I think it’s a great way of putting it – being held, having it be slower and being a soothing, relaxing experience because in my life I’m a business owner and a therapist and I exercise a ton, so I’m looking for the opposite in sex. I’m overstimulated in my life. So I’d like my sex to be yeah help calm me down. That makes sense. Yeah.

Shana James (06:43)
Yes. I love hearing that and I love that you are speaking that out into the world, because again, I think it can be so rare for men to say, “hey, I like it this way, or this is out of the box of what is conventionally deemed as masculine.” Alright, how do you navigate this? It’s not an easy one.

Marc Azoulay (07:19)
No, it’s not an easy one. I mean, there’s all kinds of stuff I can talk about. We’ve been to therapists and done workshops and like really have invested in this thing, difference. I don’t wanna say it’s an issue, but a difference. But I think maybe a place to start that was the first hurdle was that I literally didn’t know this about myself because I was not in a relationship long enough to get there. It was a year, maybe two. And even then I was doing what a lot of men do –posturing. I was spitting game. I was doing the stuff that attracted partners. I was very dominant. I was not very aggressive, but assertive, and I still am those things. But in the sexual space, I was doing I guess what I learned– make sure she always comes first, take the lead, be in an initiating role, what I learned from other dudes and from porn, honestly. Just kind of playing out that script. And it wasn’t until I really started studying Tantra and talking to some Tantrica friends of mine where I realized I was pretty disconnected the whole time. I was very dissociated.
My orgasms didn’t feel anything more than just kind of like a relief, like, okay, it’s over. I didn’t enjoy being horny. When I was aroused, it was like, okay, just get rid of this. It wasn’t about enjoying or feeling powerful. It was like, this sucks. This is a obstacle I want to get rid of, right?

Shana James (08:48)
Like too much, too intense. We got to get rid of this energy, or climax so we can get on the other side and have that kind of relief.

Marc Azoulay (09:11)
Right, have the relief, go back to my life, and just get back on track or whatever. It felt like getting over an obstacle. And again, that level of disconnection, it was very performative and very service oriented, right? I think, like many guys, my ego was a part of it, it was how many orgasms I can make my partner have? And the intensity of the orgasms – it was like I was getting fed in a way by that, by kind of like the dopamine jackpot.

Shana James (09:27)
Yes.

Marc Azoulay (09:41)
But I wasn’t getting fed sexually, if that makes sense.

Shana James (09:44)
Right, this is so important, I think. And something you said before reminded me of the fact that just because you have this realization, that you’re focused on being more in service…I guess it’s not black or white, right? Just because you realize I don’t wanna be this, or I want sex to be a little bit more, soothing or caring, doesn’t then mean that you have to be submissive or, right?
There are so many different sliders, or so many different facets and ways that you can explore and experience intimacy and sex. And I could imagine that someone listening, if they’re having their own question of, do I even like the way I am having sex? It doesn’t just have to be that now you go to the opposite. There’s more there. Does that make sense?

Marc Azoulay (10:40)
Absolutely. To make it real for some of your listeners, the ideal sexual experience for me is like a massage almost. It’s partnered. We’re both in connection. So it’s not like I’m laying there doing nothing, right? But that kind of energy of like literally relieving tension, working through pain points, going slow, focusing on areas that need care, it feels more like a tune up maybe, I don’t know, or like a healing experience. Versus an aggressive or submissive output of sexual energy.

Shana James (11:10)
Yes. Okay, and so how do you navigate this with your wife when if she wants to be more dominated or she wants you to be more assertive, is there a way you go back and forth and try her way, then my way, or is there something in between, or how are you two navigating that?

Marc Azoulay (11:33)
Yeah. So there’s kind of two sides of that coin, right? So I think historically, and, still typically, we’re doing her style of sex. I can be aggressive. I can be, I can do all the King stuff. Like I’ve been in the BSM community. I can tread those waters and I can perform, and she enjoys that. I don’t get as much out of it, but I get something out of it. It’s not totally empty, but more often than not, I think it’s still defaults to that because that’s the type of sex she enjoys.
And that’s also on me because, as a man, I had to overcome a major kind of shame barrier to even ask for a gentler version, or to even, like I said, be aware of it and then be able to kind of vocalize what I was looking for.

Shana James (12:20)
Okay, so how do you get your needs met then, or desires? If you’re defaulting to her style, then what else happens?

Marc Azoulay (12:40)
Yeah. so I think the language of stimulation really worked well for us. I mentioned a little bit at the beginning of the show that she prefers high stimulating sex and sometimes overstimulating sex. Her perfect orgasm is just being overwhelmed by sensation, and really losing herself in that wave of sensation, right? Whether that’s with a toy or whatever it is. That also includes music and scent and candles and everything, right? It’s like if she can have every sense stimulated, she is like in her happy place.
Whereas for me, I want less stimulation. I want to have a focused experience. So, like I said, a massage is probably the best analog and we’ve used this kind of conversation where, for me, a good orgasm is like, if I am having a massage, she’s touching me, slowly rhythmically, with healing energy. And if I can just focus on her touch without anything else going on, Maybe lights, or low music, but what I’m looking for is like really being able to lose myself in a single deep loving sensation versus just getting every wire plugged into the outlet, you know.

Shana James (13:59)
So do you guys intentionally create that for you, knowing that the default is the other kind of sexual experience?

Marc Azoulay (14:12)
Yeah, for sure. I’ve have learned to be more vocal with that. And again, it’s my ongoing journey with my masculinity of saying, cause it’s hard for me. I’m a recovering nice guy who tends to minimize my own needs. So I work on it and it’s still challenging for me to say, Hey, I need a back rub right now. Or, would you like to rub my back? Or I’m feeling tense or Hey, is it okay if we just lie down and cuddle for a minute?
I’m a therapist so I think I have some advantage, but it still can feel not very masculine. You know, just from growing up as a millennial, watching a lot of porn. You don’t see that. You don’t see that in the sex education. And dudes don’t talk about that really..

Shana James (14:52)
No. It strikes me that in my book, I talked about expanding the definition of sex so that it’s not just genital stimulation and there is energy and there’s emotion and there’s soul and there are all these different things. And so, I could see in a relationship dynamic, and it sounds like this happens for you, where one of the kinds of sex you’re having is the more intense, hitting all the different senses… And one of the kinds of sex you’re having is more gentle (whether it is just massage or whether it is just cuddling or whether it is a sex that resembles massage and healing and just more gentle and caring)… I’m imagining that it could be like, well, the other one’s more like a bigger bang. So this one doesn’t count as much or feeling.
Do you know what I’m saying? There’s something in there where I could see someone feeling a missing, but it doesn’t sound like a missing the way you talk about it.

Marc Azoulay (16:12)
Yeah, I don’t feel like I’m missing anything. I mean, granted I did have the other side of sexual experience as well. I don’t think I’m miss anything. I mean, for me, it really is trying to get in touch with what my body needs, you know? Being a business owner again, exercising a lot, I store a lot of tension. I have intensity. I have tension. I’m working with dude’s emotions all day, whether that’s aggression or sadness or pain. I’m in a lot of intensity throughout the day. So for me, my counterbalance really is like a soothing experience. And also, if my job changes or my lifestyle changes, I might want a different type of sex. I’m open to that changing.
And I think when I was younger and dating all these different women, I did want that more intense sex, at least because there was like that chase aspect, right? There was the conquest aspect. There was this idea of I was dating above my arena, above my pay grade or whatever, right? I would get off on that.
So there was this sense of. I got the prize. But as a middle-aged man, those things aren’t as important to me anymore because I know I can have sex. I know I can date people. I proved that to myself.

Shana James (17:37)
Yes. How do you navigate the discrepancy in desire for the amount of sex? And again, some people listening may identify on either end of the spectrum. How do you two navigate that one?

Marc Azoulay (17:54)
This one is more on Caroline. And I think that her version of the work was similar to mine, admitting that she does need that. She was raised Catholic. Like I said, didn’t have a ton of sexual variety, although she had a lot of sexual experience, and asking was very difficult for her. Initiating was very difficult for her, and she even had some barriers, which I know a lot of men feel, like if she was initiating and I wasn’t into it, then she was like assaulting me or something. Like she was non-consensually having sex with me. Whereas I think, I’ll tell you if it’s a no. But, even if I’m like halfway in, I’ll get you off. It’s fine. I’m cool with that. So it took this trust building around her being able to ask me, and being able to say no.
Honestly, I say yes more often than not because I love her and care about her, and that’s the need. And like I said, I get something out of it. So I think a lot of the work was her learning how to initiate and learning how to just be very direct. As a side note, we are currently trying to have a baby. We’re trying to conceive, so that in some ways has trained us to be more vocal because there’s certain ovulation windows and you have to just hit them.
And there’s some level of strategy. You can’t just have sex every day because the sperm gets depleted. So you have to kind of pace it out. It’s a whole thing, but that has made us be very communicative around when and where and how we’re going to work sex into our day, because we kind of have to.

Shana James (19:23)
I remember so many of those moments and I remember one time actually tweaking my back because I was doing some kind of pose after having sex where it was supposed to have the sperm go in toward the egg. It’s such a crazy time when that’s happening.

Marc Azoulay (19:55)
Yeah, it’s a wild time and it’s hard to know what is good information because there’s a thousand books and we’ve read a handful of them. They’re all different. And we talked to doctors and they say they have all these measurement techniques, but none of them really work. And it’s like, you’d think since this is a science, we’d have this figured out.

Shana James (20:10)
I remember I used a device to put saliva on to see if I was ovulating more, and then the thermometer, and then all the things. Wow, I wish you both the best and I hope that it happens for you for sure. You’ll be an amazing dad. It sounds like part of the way you navigate the desire discrepancy (in this case it’s her) but that the person with the higher desire actually finds their own capacity to ask for what they want, and to not necessarily hear no as a rejection, but also to be able to hear no.

Marc Azoulay (21:04)
Yes, exactly. And I think for women, it’s harder. And Caroline is more of a submissive style. So her ask might be verbal, or it might be her bumping her butt against me. It might be her rubbing my back. It might be more subtle than., right? Because she doesn’t want to be domineering. So it’s also kind of an interesting wrinkle to it. She doesn’t want to be like a dominant person, but she wants me to do it.

Shana James (21:37)
Right. But she has to take responsibility for giving that initial bump, as you say. So what I’m hearing is that you’re a generous partner. You know that it makes her happy. You want her to have it. You also get something out of it, but it’s not necessarily the thing you want most. But you said, say yes more often than you say no.
I think there are times where I’ve heard from partners that they don’t necessarily want to, or they don’t want to as much as the other person does. So I’m curious how you frame that for yourself, and then if you have clients who are in those situations too?

Marc Azoulay (22:20)
Yeah, what I learned and I guess what I would say to the partners out there too is, for me, having sex with her in that way is not just about that way, right? It’s so that we can feel more connected days, if not weeks later. It’s so that we fight less truly. It’s so that I can look at her and smile more. If you want to get kind of romantic, there’s like an oxytocin release that happens for both me and more for her.
It raises more for women. But it does even out our relationship. And I think that, again, cause she’s a higher desire, she feels that tension more when she hasn’t had sex recently enough. I think she doesn’t really masturbate. So like the only time she’s having an orgasm is with me. So it’s something I think just for her health, and for the health of the relationship. It’s also about that for me. So it’s kind of a bigger picture than just putting out.

Shana James (23:22)
I love that. And I remember interviewing Alison Armstrong and her saying that at her age, I think she might’ve been in her 50s at that point, she talked about how she doesn’t necessarily have sex just for that moment. She has sex for what she knows it will do for her. Because at that moment, she doesn’t always necessarily want it, but she also knows that she will open, relax, feel less tension and all of those things.
I’m curious about your sense of the concept of sexual sovereignty because again, in relationships where one person has a higher desire, I often go back to that concept as a way to see that the other person isn’t necessarily responsible to meet your sexual needs. You can masturbate or self-pleasure. You can find other ways to use that sexual energy, or feel that orgasmic energy. But it sounds like that’s not happening in your relationship. So I’m curious how you think about that.

Marc Azoulay (24:23)
Yeah, I mean, I think there’s the golden rule –Which is to treat others how you want to be treated. And then there’s like the platinum rule, which is to treat others how they want to be treated. And I think that for me, is what a relationship is about. I’m obviously not perfect, but I think especially for long-term marriage and relationships is part of me compromising and understanding that she has needs and she has ways of being that I might never understand.
There are many needs she has that I don’t understand at all. And there’s many needs that I have that she doesn’t understand at all. And I think part of being in a long-term relationship, our ideals is that we learn to meet those needs.
I don’t feel trapped by it, or obligated, but I think there is some level of the promise and commitment that I’ve made to her to at least give it a shot, you know, at least do it more times than not. And if I’m really not feeling it, or if it feels violating, which again is very rare if ever, then it’s also on me to say no. But if it’s lukewarm, I can go with lukewarm. It doesn’t have to be perfect every time.

Shana James (25:30)
You can roll with it. I appreciate that. That sex doesn’t have to be some grand experience every time. And the platinum rule is to me a really beautiful way to be in a relationship, where you are considering the needs of the other person and the WE, not just how am I getting my needs or desires met, but what does my partner need to be happy? And how are we regulating each other, and staying connected, and creating more joy and pleasure for both of us.

Marc Azoulay (26:07)
Yeah, totally. I think the sovereignty thing is critical, especially with individuals that have sexual trauma. When people work with that, taking full control of their sex life, no questions asked, is really important. But where I go with that around sex and with everything, is if you’re completely sovereign all the time, you’re not in a relationship. I think that is one of the things that we do give up by choice. We do give that up by deciding to partner with somebody long-term.
There’s just going to be shit that I don’t want to do, but I got to do it. Ya know?

Shana James (26:38)
Yeah and I imagine that could be really edgy, and people listening might not have that same perspective. Or there could be a blend. It’s not black or white – like you are sexually sovereign or you are not.
I don’t know if it’s true, but I tend to imagine that women hearing this will feel more like if I give in, or I say yes when I don’t want to, that feels like me betraying myself. And so I’m appreciating you speaking to some of those shades of gray in between, that it’s not just black or white in that way also.

Marc Azoulay (27:14)
I agree. There’s a major privilege component and I’m not going to pretend to understand the female sexual experience because I think it is more vulnerable. I mean, you’re getting penetrated, so I think it’s a much more vulnerable position than the position that I’m in.

Shana James (27:30)
Yes, and as women get older and start having more pain or struggles that go with perimenopause and menopause, I think that can be more of an issue as well. It sounds to me like you’re doing what I always suggest, which is communicating. You didn’t get to that point in the relationships in the past when you were short term relationships. But now that it’s a long term relationship, I heard you say, you’ve invested in your dynamic, in your sex life and your relationship through doing these different courses and exploring this together.

Marc Azoulay (28:05)
Yeah, absolutely. Like I said, I’m more traditionalist in some ways. I think that there are commitments that we make to other people, And sex is just one arena. But for instance, I don’t really like going out to dinner with my in-laws. There’s some tension there in the family. But I go. Because I’m supporting her and I want to build our family.
Again, there are all these other reasons, like the dinner itself might kind of suck or be boring or whatever. But there are all these greater reasons why I’m going to do that, and I’m going to be friendly and I’m going to tell jokes and I’m going to ask them questions. I’m going to engage because I think like sometimes you gotta do stuff you don’t want to do. I guess that is what I’m trying to say.

Shana James (28:51)
Yeah, I think that’s a tricky one when we bring it back to sex. But what I appreciate about that is that it can open up conversations. I think a lot of times people with lower desire can use the, “I don’t feel like it.” to then not communicate or not have a conversation. Because I think a valid question is “what would have you feel like it?” Not from a place that the other person is pissed off and resentful, but more like, “hey, okay, so if this were to be pleasurable for you, if this were something you really enjoyed, what would you want?” Or “Are there other things that you want that aren’t sex?” Because like we said, it doesn’t have to be even tit for tat. You might want more cuddling and massage and emotional intimacy, and I might want more sex, and so how do we create both of those?

Marc Azoulay (29:48)
Yeah, totally. I’ll be a little presumptuous about maybe the female experience, so please check me on that. I think a lot of guys are probably similar to me where we are very dissociated during sex. And I think a lot of men are a little crude, masturbating with a vagina. And I imagine our female partners feel that. I mean, they feel that there isn’t a connection there. They feel like they could be anybody. They could be a warm body. They could be a fleshlight. They could be the guy’s left hand.
I mentioned that sex was not that connective, or enjoyable or exciting. And I think for men that’s in many ways the only sex we know how to have, because we are heavily, heavily defended from our own emotions. So we might not even know that there’s this whole other realm of connection. And what is even more of an obstacle is that when we feel it, we might be really afraid of it and want to shut it down.
So all this is to say I agree with you .It might be the type of sex that’s getting in the way. And I imagine many women haven’t ever had good sex, or ever had connected sex because most guys don’t know how to do that. You know?

Shana James (30:43)
I know it breaks my heart. It really does break my heart and it has me go back to thinking – if there are women or people who are listening to this, who feel like it’s just not working, it’s not the way you want it to be, or it’s not pleasurable, I hope this instigates having a conversation to be able to say, “I’m struggling here. The way that it’s going isn’t pleasurable for me, or it’s not working for me.”
I’ve played a game with my partner before where we ask what would make something even better? What would allow me to feel even more pleasure, because there are some moments where I might think yeah it’s good enough. I don’t need to rock the boat by saying something, or asking for something, but at the same time, when I do, I realize it’s a completely different experience to really feel like what I’m receiving is what I’m craving.

Marc Azoulay (32:04)
Yeah, it’s kind of like those peak experiences that really do push all the buttons. And create what you write about, the kind of spiritual, five dimensional level up around that. I think that’s really critical. And I think for the women out there, it’s to be a challenge, right? Take it or not. And you might lose your relationship, but it would be helpful to really hold the mirror up to your male partner and ask them “where are you right now?”
I had some early partners do that and I was too insecure, and I ended up dumping them, So there might be some kind of like side effect, but I think men, because again we’re privileged, we don’t ever get feedback. A lot of people are afraid of offending us, or don’t want to make us angry or mad. For good reason. But I think asking a guy, like I said, “where are you right now?” Or “where did you go?” Or “Hey, stay with me.” doesn’t have to be that aggressive. It’s just like trying to pull the partner into the present moment to move the sex towards something that is more enjoyable for you. Because I think once I started focusing on presence, the sex got a lot better for the women.

Shana James (33:17)
Yes! And I would encourage, in the way that you’re talking about, to do it with as much open heartedness as you can muster. Or with as much care or compassion, or whatever word we want to use to say it’s not about attacking or blaming or shaming or saying, “what’s wrong with you?” It’s an invitation. An “I’m here, and there’s more possible. We can actually explore this together. We can have more pleasure. We can have more intimacy. We can have more love. I’m inviting you into that.”

Marc Azoulay (33:53)
Yep. Cause I think the average guy is just running the program that we’ve watched in porn videos for 10 years, right? We are on autopilot and yeah, again I think the women really feel that.

Shana James (34:05)
Yeah, I know women feel it for sure.
Thank you so much for sharing more about what you’ve been practicing and how you and your wife navigate it, and for opening up in such vulnerable ways about what’s really happening for you. I’m really appreciating how rare it is to have these kinds of conversations.
We’re not sitting at the dinner table and saying, “all right, here’s what’s happening with my orgasm, here’s what’s happening with my level of desire.” I mean, you can know couples for years or decades and know nothing about their sex life or what they’re struggling with. So thank you for initiating this more vulnerable way of engaging around the topic of sex.

Marc Azoulay (34:56)
Yeah, thanks for doing the work you’re doing and creating platforms for these conversations. Because I agree, it’s still super taboo. And the thing I see, which I’ll allude to is that most education is porn, especially for men. So anything that is the real message is needed out there because there’s an overwhelming amount of message in the other direction.

Shana James (35:20)
Yeah thank you. Is there anything else you wanna add or anything you feel like we’ve left out?

Marc Azoulay (35:29)
I think we got it. I think we covered some really good bases there.

Shana James (35:34)
Great. Where can people find you and your work?

Marc Azoulay (35:38)
Yes, you can find me at menstherapy.online.com. It’s a healing hub for men who want to get themselves back on their feet or take their lives to the next level. It’s kind of our tagline there.
We offer something really different in that we’re working for the everyman. So for that kind of divorced dad, for the guy who lost a job, for a young man who feels lost and confused and really wants to take that next step but is put off by the Manosphere stuff that is out there right now.
We’re not super woo woo. A lot of men bounce off of therapists because they’re a little bit too soft.. So we don’t pull any punches. We’re here in support of you, to become the best man you can be. So the website is menstherapy.online and we’re at menstherapyonline on every single social media platform.

Shana James (36:30)
Awesome. Thank you so much.

Marc Azoulay (36:33)
Yeah, thanks a lot.

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#8: Your Relationship Doesn’t Have to Look Like Anyone Else’s – Kristal DeSantis

December 26, 2024 by Shana James Leave a Comment

Without healthy relationship role models it’s hard to know what we should tolerate in a romantic relationship, and what else is possible. And without seeing into others’ relationships it can be hard to know if what you’re doing is working, and will last. Today we talk about the vulnerability and joy of creating a unique relationship that works for you.

If you’re not satisfied with your love or sex-life, and could use some insights into what makes a person want more of you, tell me more about yourself here and we’ll schedule a time to talk.

Your Relationship Doesn’t Have to Look Like Anyone Else’s: Show Notes

Most of us don’t get to see inside others’ romantic relationships. We don’t see how they speak to each other, how they navigate household responsibilities and finances, what kind of sex they have…

I’ve had the unique perspective of seeing behind the curtain, and what I’ve seen has revealed that each relationship is unique.

Some start hot and fast. Others build over time.

Some hit a rough spot in the first few years.

Others coast for decades before something creates a need for reassessing roles or dynamics.

Some couples are vanilla. Some are kinky.

Some are monogamous. Some are polyamorous. (And some are monogamish.)

Some sleep in the same room. Others sleep apart.

Every relationship is unique but we aren’t given many examples of this, so it’s easy to worry that you may be doing something wrong if you need more space, more affection, a different kind of connection.

Today’s Practicing Love podcast guest, Kristal DeSantis is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, a Clinically Certified Trauma Professional, Certified Sex Therapy Informed Professional, EMDR trained clinician, and a State of Texas approved Premarital Education Provider. She is the creator of The STRONG model of Relational Therapy and is the author of S.T.R.O.N.G.: A Relationship Field Guide for the Modern Man.

In this conversation we discussed:

Conscious perspectives on dynamics between men and women
How be vulnerable and relational with a partner
How to get deeper than the surface fights, to actually heal and create connection
When it’s time to shake things up and create a new dynamic
Releasing ourselves from outdated roles
What happens when people get lazy in relationships
Letting go of the script that we are responsible for our partner’s happiness
Co-creating relationship satisfaction

When Kristal met her husband, she was very practiced at being independent, and hadn’t had healthy relationship examples. She realized she needed to learn how to do relationships her way, without giving up parts of herself. We talked about a variety of challenging and inspiring ways she and her husband have navigated this. I highly recommend this podcast if you want to discover what a healthy, conscious relationship looks like to you!

If you didn’t yet see, I created a quiz where you can see what keeps you from having the best love and sex of your life.

Links:

Connect with Shana James

Best love and sex of your life quiz

Honest Sex

Website

Curious what you’d need to become a better leader and lover? Take the quiz

For Women: Modern dating doesn’t have to be a nightmare for women

Connect with Kristal

www.Strong.Love

Bio:

Kristal DeSantis is a Texas Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, a Clinically Certified Trauma Professional, Certified Sex Therapy Informed Professional, EMDR trained clinician, and a State of Texas approved Premarital Education Provider. She is the creator of The STRONG model of Relational Therapy and is the author of S.T.R.O.N.G.: A Relationship Field Guide for the Modern Man.

Her specialties include: Couples’ Therapy (including sexual desire discrepancy/ out of control sexual behaviors/recovery from infidelity), EMDR for trauma and PTSD recovery, PREPARE/Enrich Premarital Counseling, conflict and communication skill-building for high conflict couples, emotional regulation, and healing from attachment trauma. Her passion populations are high performing/self-identified hyper-masculine men and those who love them.

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#7: Stop a Relationship From Drifting, Fading, or Falling Apart – Alyson and Tripp Lanier

December 12, 2024 by Shana James Leave a Comment

Relationships are always at risk of drifting apart if you don’t do anything to stop it. Today’s guests are a couple who consciously chooses to keep their love alive, rather than sleepwalk through their relationship. They share their challenges and give you tools and perspectives to stop love from fading or falling apart.

If you’re not satisfied with your love or sex-life, and could use some insights into what makes a person want more of you, tell me more about yourself here and we’ll schedule a time to talk.

Stop a Relationship From Drifting, Fading, or Falling Apart: Show Notes

It’s so easy to drift apart in a relationship. We don’t get the lovey-dovey honeymoon chemical cocktail forever. Responsibilities pile up, and our bodies age. Family and friends need caring for…

If we don’t take the reins of a relationship, drift happens!

But you can turn this around, and even create a stronger connection than you ever had. It takes some commitment, and some honest conversations, but I know it can be done and talk about it on this week’s Practicing Love podcast. I was joined by Alyson and Tripp Lanier. Alyson is a relationship and intimacy coach, and Tripp is a men’s coach and host of the popular New Man Podcast. I’ve known them for almost two decades, and they are one of the strongest and most inspiring couples I know.

The three of us talked about how to consciously engage in a relationship so intimacy doesn’t fade. We discussed important topics like…

Tripp’s epiphany that he needed to grow up for his relationship to thrive
Recognizing a relationship as a living, breathing organism that we need to tend, so it doesn’t die on the vine
The practice of “keeping the streets clean” (Sex doesn’t happen without it)
Why complaints are smoke, not fire, and what to do with the actual fire
How to stop sleepwalking through a relationship
Getting on the same team, rather than being adversarial
What to do when we feel threatened by each other’s interests
How to hear each other fully
Holding your center and remaining an adult in moments of disconnection
How assumptions create pain
The necessary practice of self-awareness
How to make commitments, even before you know how to make them happen

When you’re done with this one, check out this episode with Tripp on Man Alive on Peak Performance!

And if you haven’t taken my new quiz, go here to see what keeps you from having the best love and sex of your life. It only takes 2-5 minutes.

Links:

Connect with Shana James

Honest Sex

Website

Curious what you’d need to become a better leader and lover? Take the quiz

For Women: Modern dating doesn’t have to be a nightmare for women

Connect with Alyson and Tripp

TrippLanier.com

AlysonLanier.com

Bio:

Alyson Lanier is a multifaceted expert at the intersection of psychological and spiritual healing. With a 30 year career in Psychotherapy that includes a BA, MA, and LPC in psychology, Alyson supplemented her education with extensive training and certifications in attachment work, Gestalt therapy, Transpersonal psychology, Shambhala Buddhism, internal family systems, and Psychedelic assisted psychotherapy. Her professional journey encompasses over 50,000 hours of therapeutic experience working with individuals, couples, families, children, and adolescents across clinical and private settings.

Tripp Lanier is a professional coach, author of This Book Will Make You Dangerous, and host of The New Man Podcast: Beyond the Macho Jerk and the New Age Wimp, which — for over a decade — has been downloaded millions of times. Since 2005, he has spent thousands of hours coaching people all around the world to get out of the rat race, become an authority in their field, and make a great living doing the work they were put on this earth to do. Over the years he’s designed several businesses to support a simple lifestyle focused on freedom, ease, meaning, and fun.

Transcript

Shana James (00:02)

Hello and welcome to this episode of Practicing Love: Have the best love and sex of your life after 40. I’m your host Shana James and I am thrilled to be here today with Tripp and Alyson Linear. Tripp and Alyson and I have known each other for at least 20 years at this point. We kind of grew up together in our young adult lives.

Tripp and I have been in touch through business, but Alyson and I just realized we haven’t talked since we’ve had our babies, and it’s been probably 14 or 15 years. So it’s amazing to see both of you and have you both here. And one of the reasons I’m thrilled to have you here is because you two are kicking ass I would say, at relationship. And you’ve always been a strong couple, even back in the day. And to know that 20 years later you’re still doing it, and you still look happy, and you still love each other. It’s really inspiring for people. So thank you so much for being here and for all that you’ve done to make that happen.

Alyson Lanier (01:09)

Thank you so much for having us.

Tripp Lanier (01:11)

Thanks!

Shana James (01:13)

Anything you want to say before we get into the struggles? How you define your relationship right now or how long you’ve been together, or any details you want us to know, or that would be fun to share.

Alyson Lanier (01:27)

Tripp, you’re probably gonna make a joke, but I would say it’s valuable to hear that we’ve been together for 20 years – going strong for 20 years. Navigating having a kid and raising a kid and moves and losses and gains and all of that.

Shana James (01:52)

It’s a long time, and to actually thrive for all of those years, with whatever ups and downs you’ve been through, it’s a feat.

Tripp Lanier (02:03)

Yeah, we’ve been through seasons too. We’re different in a lot of ways than who we were when we met. And I feel really fortunate because there could have been a point when we grew apart from one another. And I just felt that we have come closer together in a lot of ways, especially these last few years.

So that’s unexpected. I mean, she and I were very independent coming into this relationship and kind of viewed it like – if we make it to 10 years, awesome. But I don’t think we had super high fantasy world expectations that marriage and life was gonna be the end all be all. So I think we got into this tentatively, even though I would say we were very committed to one another, not knowing just what could happen.

Shana James (02:47)

Interesting.

Tripp Lanier (03:00)

And I think it was a big question mark. I feel like I’m painting a bad picture there. But I think it was just a cautious optimism.

Shana James (03:02)

Yeah, I can feel the paradox. You were committed and also it sounds like you weren’t stuck in the box of till death do we part. If we’re not happy here or this isn’t going well, we’re not going to just fucking be miserable and stick it out.

Tripp Lanier (03:24)

Or this happily ever after. I think we both knew we were in for a ride when we signed up for this. And we were both very committed to going on that ride together.

Alyson Lanier (03:34)

Yeah, I would say committed, and engaged, and unattached. So I think what I’m hearing from you Tripp, which resonates for how I believe you’re speaking and how I believe we’ve held it, is that we didn’t have a big pretext of what marriage life was going to look like.

We didn’t paint a picture, didn’t go in with a lot of expectations in terms of okay, now we’re married. Now it’s going to be like this, or now our relationship is like that. We didn’t subscribe to any of that and I think that was what has benefited us over the time, because we weren’t bumping up against massive disappointments, because we didn’t hold some sort of pretext, a kind of conventional created what this needs to be. So, I think that actually saved us in a lot of ways from a lot of unnecessary pain.

Tripp Lanier (04:32)

And I mean, what had me excited to commit to this in a marriage was that one of the vows, one of the things that we promised, is that we were there to support each other to be our biggest, better versions of ourselves.

And so the idea that we were going to be the thing that got in the other person’s way, or that essentially cut us off from what had us feel more alive or more whole…that’s the fear of getting into a relationship or into a committed relationship is that somehow this is going to diminish me or weaken me in some way. so knowing that that was really the commitment to one another, it was relaxed.

And so even if there was an element of, gosh, this means I need to get out of the way. It’s scary, but it was better than, nope, you’re strapped to me no matter what, and we’re going to be fucking miserable and you’re going to carry my purse at the mall kind of a thing. And it’s like, no, I’m not going not going down that road.

Shana James (05:12)

Well, one of the things I love is that you two made that commitment. It was a commitment I made for my marriage as well. And we chose to end that marriage or transition into co-parents at this point. But we too recognized that that form was better for us. I really admire that you’ve been able to ride those waves. And I guess one question I have is that without the pre-framed, this is what marriage looks like, how did you create yours?

Was it – we’re gonna sit down and intentionally say, what is marriage to us? Or is there an annual way you’re creating things? Or how does it happen?

Alyson Lanier (06:10)

Well, it started before we got married, of course, with laying a really solid foundation of what kind of relationship and how we’re going to be in relationship with each other. So there was a lot that happened before marriage showed up. But I would say that largely, in line with what Tripp’s already named here. He jokingly said, not just till death do us apart, but we consciously did not have vows like that.

We wrote our own vows, those vows were rooted in central tenets that were our core values, to do with what kind of relationship we want, what kind of marriage we want. And we have stuck by those vows. We will live into them daily. And if we need to remind ourselves or each other of them, we can and we do. And loving each other into their best self is part of the vow. It’s like, whether it works for me, whatever he’s got going on, if it lights him up and brings more wholeness into his spirit and his being, I’m committed to supporting that.

Shana James (07:30)

You support that. You’re committed to supporting that. Which is beautiful and doesn’t always happen.

Tripp Lanier (07:34)

But she said it ends at death. She said that we’re not soulmates after this.

Shana James (07:40)

After this lifetime, that’s it. You’re done. She’s like, whew, geez.

Tripp Lanier (07:42)

She’s fucking done with me. She said: we’re good, don’t come find me.

Alyson Lanier (07:48)

You’re taking things out of context. He digresses. You’re such a shit. I didn’t say that.

Tripp Lanier (07:53)

I heard you loud and clear. Don’t come and find me.

Shana James (07:53)

Obviously humor is part of how you’ve kept this relationship alive.

Anything you want to add, Tripp, to how you’ve created this relationship?

Tripp Lanier (08:13)

I noticed that I was very committed. I wanted to be with you, Alyson, and I wanted to create a life with you. I felt so certain about that, which I’d never ever felt about anybody else that I’d been with. And I remember leading up to our wedding and our marriage and just feeling like a passenger because of this kind of cultural convention of what a marriage is. And I was like, fuck this, this is not what I want.

And so, it really was about, what would this relationship really mean? What am I really putting both feet into in this regard? And so we’ve alluded to that. But it required me to do something I don’t see a lot of other guys doing, which is taking responsibility. What do I what? What am I really committing to here? And I’m going to put that on the table here. And I’m going to go online and download some vows. It was really just taking the work and doing the work and making the effort to say: This is what I’m committing to. And this is what I’m asking you to commit to.

Shana James (09:14)

Awesome. So at some point before the wedding, it sounds like you woke up and realized, okay, I’m not going to be a passenger here. I’m actually going to be generating, creating this.

Tripp Lanier (09:21)

Even though I was very happy and very, very much a yes, it still wasn’t explicit. And I think making it explicit was extremely important.

Shana James (09:34)

I think that’s a huge lesson I’ve learned – explicit versus implicit. There can be all these things that are implicit, but if they’re not explicit, and it’s not a shared reality between the two people, then there’s so much wondering or confusion, and it doesn’t create a stable foundation for people.

Tripp Lanier (09:57)

I thought marriage meant this or that. Then I though, no, we gotta get on the same page! And that can be scary. A lot of folks don’t wanna rock the boat. What if we’re not on the same page? And I see that a lot with my own clients, as they’ve been with somebody for maybe five, ten years and they’ve grown. Their partner may be on a different path. So this feeling of gosh, we’re just don’t even have a shared foundation anymore around what we care about and what we value in one another.

And that’s terrifying for them. And they’d rather not address it. Most of them have a really hard time just going into it and saying, “hey, what if we hit a refresh, and what are our hell yeses? And can we build from there instead of just staying in the box that we created many years ago?”

Alyson Lanier (10:47)

You actually named it, Shana. I think many people we work with, that we also know socially, actually don’t even get to that point of, “hey, are we still on the same page?” Or even, “hey, is this lighting me up right now?”

Or “I’m noticing that I’m digging this way of connecting with you sexually better than that way,” or whatever. People don’t really necessarily talk like that to each other. so getting to the place where suddenly we’re in different worlds, and we are going to go different ways, that can be an assumption often times that hasn’t been checked out because it just hasn’t ever been brought up.

Shana James (11:35)

I think that’s what I really appreciate about this midlife phase, where I see people waking up out of a trance like – I did the thing with the white picket fence, the kids, the whatever. And wait a minute, who am I and what do I really want?

And there are so many more challenges, with kids and body and all kinds of things, but it also feels like it’s a really beautiful opportunity to say, “okay how do I want to live the next half of my life, or the next phase of my life, and what is real for me and what’s real for you, and how could we do this together?”

Tripp Lanier (12:25)

Right, or do we want to do it together?

Shana James (12:27)

Right! I try to support people who come to me to go for together first, but to also hold that you might not want to do this together. And that’s OK, too.

We talked a little bit before we started recording about one of the struggles you’ve faced and are practicing with, around not letting the “WE,” or the couple, die in the midst of the rest of life – the parenting, the scheduling, the health concerns, the world falling apart, the hurricane, all the things. Can you talk a little bit about that struggle? And, before we get to the learnings and solutions, what is hard about keeping that alive for you?

Alyson Lanier (13:19)

I think it’s important to start from the beginning there, which may take a little bit more time. I want to name it because it was really pivotal for me. And so we had our daughter. She was probably eight months old when this conversation happened. Or maybe a year, but we’d had a baby. I quit working. We moved across the country. I was away from all of my social network and support network in terms of people in person who were able to do that with me. And while I was raising her in those really hard years, where she’s kind of her neediest, and I’m at my weakest and also neediest probably.

And the decision that we had made to move was rooted in, if we’d stayed where we were, I would have had to keep working and I really didn’t want to, I really wanted to parent full time. And so I threw myself into being a full time mom. And I’m sure you well know, Shana, what it’s like in our nervous systems as mothers when our babies are crying or when our babies are needing something or when just that sort of radar where even if they’re okay, there’s a huge part of us that is with them energetically and psychically, and so I was really fully in it with her.

And fumble fucking my way through as well. And I remember all of the hormones as I was sort of in a postpartum depression, and also just hormonally such a strong mama bear kind of thing with her, where often I would want to push Tripp away. His style of parenting wasn’t working for me, and I had my judgments around how he wanted to parent or not parent, or whatever.

And so there were a lot of nonverbal, unconscious things going on that felt hormonal, felt biological in a lot of ways, which was really interesting and surprising to me. What I remember is how easy it was to keep doing that day in and day out – being consumed with her.

Even if there was a moment for Tripp and I to connect, I remember having moments where I would just physically turn my attention to her, or I’d talk about her instead. In a moment where we could have just been us. There’s no need to bring her in, but I would. And I remember feeling like, well, that’s just where I’m at.

And there was a day where Tripp sat me down. I don’t remember, because this was many, 13 years, almost 14 years ago, but so I don’t remember verbatim, but he sat me down and squared up right next to me.

He said, I am not willing to let us die on the vine in the same breath as, of course we’re going to raise this child with everything we have. Of course you’re going to be totally zoned in on her. He was really understanding that I was where I was, but also saying “we are just as important.”

And I remember being like, there’s no fucking way. There’s no way I have more bandwidth than what I already am doing. I can’t possibly do more with another right now. But of course, I loved him. And he was right. And I knew he was right.

And that was the start, I think, of that big transition and growth and hardship where I realized, yeah, it’s us. We’re doing this. We’re carrying the flag for what’s here. And him anchoring that value for us really did wonders. Tripp, you have a knack, even though you don’t like confrontation, when you need to, you sack up.

Shana James (18:01)

Amazing. And it could be such a challenge to say that. I see that too. I can see where you, Tripp, have the capacity to say something that can be challenging, with a whole lot of love and understanding. Like, hey, I’m not saying that you shouldn’t have your full attention on this baby right now. And there is a WE. And if we don’t make it, she doesn’t get to have us. Or if we don’t make it, here’s what’s gonna happen!

Tripp Lanier (18:50)

I think If I had made it about the symptoms – we don’t do anything anymore, you don’t have sex with me, you don’t do these things… If it had come across as complaints –That’s the smoke. It’s not the fire. It’s not the it’s not the genuine concern. The genuine concern is “we’re drifting apart here. We’re going into autopilot.”

We’re starting to sleepwalk through this and that’s not acceptable. And so the genuine thing I wanted to get across was “I love you and I care about us, and that’s what we’re here to do,” instead of going through this list of all the shit you’re not doing well and pile it on top of all the responsibilities you already have, because that would have just closed the door and it wouldn’t have worked.

Shana James (19:29)

Right. It would have just crushed her. And I just heard you say, “I love you and I care about us.” That’s a very different tone than “f* you for not being who I need.” or even “I’m hurt.”

You can be hurt. You can be all those things, but yes, the fire, not the smoke, is that sense of “I love you. I want to be with you. want I want to make this work for us.”

Alyson Lanier (19:59)

Yes.

Tripp Lanier (19:59)

Right, and having compassion. I don’t know how the fuck we’re gonna do this. But we need to. We need to figure this out.

Alyson Lanier (20:06)

Yeah, we need to figure this out. And that was essentially what you said” “we need to figure this out.” And that also helped. It was like, “I don’t have all the answers. It’s not that you’re not enough and I’m just standing over here tapping my foot with my arms folded. But we need to figure this out.” And so we did.

I go back to that story long ago because, while I felt really strong with that value before going into all the other things, like when we were dating, engaged and newly married – that’s fun and it’s it’s fucking easy compared to bringing a freaking baby in the world, and moving across the country, and you all sorts of things that hormones do, and life stressors, right?

He was having to come up with two incomes. There was just a lot going on, a lot that could take us away from each other. And so I wanted to mark that time because that was pivotal as a way to codify the value, almost tattoo it into our hearts, that this is a value of ours. And we’ve held that up through and through.

Shana James (21:28)

That’s what I was just going to say too, is that’s amazing, because you can codify that. And then you can five, 10 years later say, “Hey, we had this conversation. This was really important to us. What happened?”

It sounds like you’ve managed over time to keep that as a priority, and to keep that WE. I love the question: How can we do this together? How can we be on the same team? Not: how can you fix this?

Tripp Lanier (21:55)

It’s the temptation is to get into an adversarial dynamic. Well, if she just did more of this and more of that. If you just did more of this and more of that. And to get into that instead of, all right, we signed up for this.

We’ve signed up for this challenge and we’re in it now. So let’s go through it together. Let’s be on the same team here, instead of add another layer of of hardship on top of it. And that always helped me feel better – being in this together, facing these challenges together instead of thinking: these challenges shouldn’t be happening, or they should be easy if only my partner just did A, B and C. And I think that’s an easy thing to do, which is make somebody else responsible for all this discomfort and these hardships.

Shana James (22:45)

Yeah, I think it’s especially easy to blame if you’re the quieter one, or there’s someone else who’s stronger in the relationship and is calling the shots. You might think, I’m not doing it, but there’s the choiceless choice too, right? Whatever side of the dynamic you’re on, you are creating that dynamic.

Okay, so what else? Tell us about like some of the struggles over the years of maintaining the WE, which will probably also get into some of what you’ve learned and how you’re practicing.

Tripp Lanier (23:23)

I’m trying to think of where that shows up. I mean, now that our daughter is becoming more independent, we’re waking up like, wow, we have more time for ourselves individually. And so there’s also rediscovering – who am I now on at this stage? And then how does that impact the relationship that we’re in?

Shana James (23:47)

…which could be threatening. It’s exciting, but also could be threatening to some people.

Tripp Lanier (23:51)

Yeah, I’m convinced Allison’s gonna leave me for a 75 year old beekeeper. I gotta keep an eye on these guys.

Alyson Lanier (24:00)

For a what?

Shana James (24:05)

Is this an actual person in your life?

Alyson Lanier (24:05)

Do you have one in mind? Can you introduce me?

Tripp Lanier (24:10)

I’m keeping an eye on these guys. I mean they can’t walk very well, but they know a lot about bees and that’s a big, big turn on for her. And I can’t compete there.

Alyson Lanier (24:21)

I’m, really into beekeeping right now.

Shana James (24:23)

Wow, nice.

Alyson Lanier (24:25)

You are speaking to something that is much more current, which is, our daughter is becoming more independent. She finally – I feel like I have to just put a little bit of my developmental teaching hat on.

So, teenagers shift their primary attachment from their caregivers to their friends, their social network. So she’s doing that. She’s right on time in doing that. And I’m hugely supportive of that happening. Not only because I know that developmentally, she’s on time, and that’s what should be happening. And I really like her friend network. she’s got a good thing going on with that.

Alyson Lanier (25:21)

But it’s giving me more freedom. I’m noticing I can see my life again, coming back. I can have my own life again. So I have been really excited about this and I think as she has started to transition in that way from the nest more, I too have transitioned from just circling the wagons around the three of us. And I’m now more like, OK, what do I want to get into? What am I interested in? What do I want to renew, refresh? What energizes me, and what enlivens me in the world as far as me being in the world again instead of feeling like I’m just at home?

And I have been working the whole time, but largely my primary commitment has been home and the family. So Tripp has really felt that. And it has been threatening to him.

Shana James (26:33)

Okay, as you’ve had a new sense of, there’s a world out there – I could focus on other things. My kid doesn’t need me and I’m not necessarily going to put all that energy back into our relationship. I’m going to take some of it and go with it.

Alyson Lanier (26:40)

Yeah, because I still have a certain amount of time in a day before I’m back on duty again with her, or with householding, or that sort of thing. And so what I noticed is that time where historically it was totally fine to just kind of fuck off and be with each other, and just kind of be waiting for him whenever he was available, away from clients or whatever…Now I’m more like, well, I got my own thing going on, and I want to go do this. I’m actually not available for you, So I think he’s really felt that.

Shana James (27:30)

Do you want to say anything about that Tripp?

Tripp Lanier (27:46)

I would say that it was when we weren’t talking about it. I was like, “what the f’s going on?” Because the pattern was, if there was open time, then the default was that we would get together, you know, and do those things.

Alyson Lanier (28:03)

We’d be fucking, to be clear. Or going out on dates or having lunch together, or whatever.

Tripp Lanier (28:12)

I prefer making love!

But the idea was just that it was a different behavior and it was like, wait a second. What’s going on? And the part that was threatening was me living in a world of assumptions of thinking, wow, I guess she doesn’t value this or want this anymore.

Once we talked about it, and got on the same page about what is happening and what it looks like going forward, it was like, OK, we’ll work through this. This is fine.

Shana James (28:30)

So one of the practices, it sounds like, is actually being honest and transparent about what’s going on. But before we get to that, I’m just wondering, Tripp, because I could see a lot of people being threatened in a way when their partner has something new they’re excited about – worried maybe they’re gonna leave me – can you say a little more about some of what was going on in your mind, or how it felt threatening?

Tripp Lanier (29:14)

I think that if it was left unchecked, there was a concern of, in the same way I was concerned earlier on, that we would go into autopilot, and from here on out, we just become ships in the night.

Shana James (29:18)

Got it. Separate, not the WE anymore.

Tripp Lanier (29:31)

Separate worlds. You’re doing your thing. I’m doing my thing. But we don’t really have a WE anymore. And I didn’t want that.

I was very clear that I didn’t want that. So the concern was, maybe she wants that. She’s highly independent and maybe she’s just done. Maybe she doesn’t want a man period. Doesn’t want this in her life period. She wants a dog and beehives and her garden and I can go f off. So that was the fear. And that may still happen.

Alyson Lanier (30:04)

Yeah, I was gonna say, you still have that fear.

Shana James (30:08)

It’s so powerful to distinguish that. And then to take that fear, and instead of, like you said, bringing all the smoke and the complaint – the “I’ve supported you or in this way for these many years and now you’re just going to run off…,” to be able to consciously say something that is more vulnerable, like “I’m a little bit nervous about this.”

Tripp Lanier (30:31)

Right. Or, what’s going on here? And what’s happening going forward? I think that’s how we’ve handled it. We asked: “What does it look like for you? What’s your yes?” And I think just coming back to that the fear is, when we have those conversations – What if this is it? What if we’re entering into the next phase, and the next phase is separate?

Shana James (30:46)

That is a big reason I hear from clients who come to me and say, ”I don’t want to talk about it,” because what if this means the end? But then there’s enduring the discomfort, the distance, the separation that’s already there.

Tripp Lanier (31:10)

I can’t tolerate that. Yeah, I f’ing hate that shit. So I don’t. We get right into it.

Alyson Lanier (31:10)

Yeah, they’re already creating distance. Neither of us tolerate that very well. That’s a really tough place.

Honestly, I don’t really know how other people do it the way they do it. I have next to zero tolerance for that and and so does Tripp. We are a mess if we let it go for more than like a few hours, or day at most. We get really dysregulated. It doesn’t work to not talk about it.

Shana James (31:52)

Okay. So the main practice sounds like talking about it.

What else are you practicing, or how else are you actually maintaining the WE in the midst of all these transitions?

Alyson Lanier (32:02)

One of the pivotal practices is let’s play a game called “clear it up.” We clear things up all the time if we need to, so clearing things up, continuing to make sure that we are clear and have a shared reality.

I think for him, when he was at a point where he was starting to realize that he was creating some assumptions, and therefore feeling hurt and scared, he was able to have the self-awareness. So that was a big practice that I was really grateful for, that he had the self-awareness to be like, my God, this is what’s going on for me. I’m afraid of XYZ. Instead of blaming me with you, you, you…

And then, for me to really hear that and to listen, not just to what he’s saying, to really hear what he’s saying to be able to reflect: “it sounds like you’re scared that this value is on the chopping block.” And to tell him: I’m not going anywhere.

Shana James (33:11)

Right? You could hear that and reflect that back, instead of being threatened and going down some kind of defensive shame spiral and attacking back, or pulling away.

Alyson Lanier (33:17)

Right.

There’s a lot of nuance, and extra kind of skills we’re not speaking to, but I had to hold center, had to remain an adult. I needed to not go into my childlike place of either shame or protective places and continue to really be present with what was going on over there. So in some ways, interestingly, even though it was about me, I had to be able to not make it about me, to be able to stay in the real conversation at hand.

That is a practice, because it really is a skill that gets built. To be able to hear what’s really coming across the bow, and fortunately we have some real central tenants, that were our vows and one of them is to always be in contact, always come back to each other, and so I could hear that that value was getting threatened.

And that he was concerned that that value was up for the chopping block. So to be able to say, I’m not going anywhere, and to also be honest and say, and yes, my attention is shifting. And I’m not going to be at your beck and call, which he didn’t like. He doesn’t like when I say that because it’s not for him. But for me, largely I was holding it that way. And so the practice for me, it’s really pragmatic.

One another practices is just to name, here’s what this day or this week looks like. And I say that because we both work from home. And so we have the luxury of fucking off if we don’t have appointments. We could we can actually just kind of hang out together or have sex or play or do whatever we want to do with each other instead of turning towards our own lives, and so the practice for me is communicating, okay today I I’m going to be over here. I’m not going to turn towards you today at least for this amount of time.

Shana James (35:36)

In that way, you’re contextualizing – I am going this way or I am taking this kind of space. It doesn’t mean I’m leaving you. Here’s when I’ll be back or here’s what this is gonna look like. So it’s not a surprise.

Alyson Lanier (35:57)

Exactly. Which is an attachment theory thing. A little teachy moment – if you’re in a fight, one of the things that I talk to my clients a lot about is if you need to take space, by all means take space. Don’t make it worse, but let them know you’ll be back! Look in their eyes and tell them. Let them know you’ll be back. So it is rooted in that.

Tripp Lanier (36:32)

I think the thing I would add is, in any relationship, if there’s been a norm developed, and then that starts to change, and it’s not discussed, then the stories can come up. So I think that’s how it felt to me. The norm was: this is what we do. We normally do it ABC.

And then there wasn’t a discussion and she was just gone off here and there, and it was like, what does this mean? So let’s clear it up. On the surface, it’s not that big of a deal, but it would be kind of easy to be like, huh, this is different than what we normally do. So what does this signify? And just getting it cleared up makes it much, much simpler. And then I can spend my time trying to derail her and get her back to doing…

Alyson Lanier (37:24)

Which you definitely do and sometimes really succeed at.

Tripp Lanier (37:32)

I sound like this needy bitch but…

Shana James (37:36)

I was going to say more like an asshole than a needy bitch, but no, you know, I mean, and this is.

Tripp Lanier (37:43)

It’s been a great interview, I really appreciate it. Shit. And this guy just sits around the house and waits for me all day. Cries if I don’t come home. What a little bitch.

Shana James (37:53)

And demands that I come to him. Ha ha. It’s a good thing we know who you really are,

Alyson Lanier (37:59)

Lol. That’s exactly right. There is one other piece that feels like an active practice. I’m sure there’s more, but one thing that feels like an active practice that I know that I can fall out of, and Tripp helps with, is anchor us back to the WE space a lot. And he does a good job. I’m thankful for it.

You started this interview saying, with all the things – kids, there’s parenting, kids’ schedule, our schedule, work schedule, hormones and healthcare, and there’s just all of these pieces and moving pieces at that, moving plates, spinning plates…

And I can get swept up in just keeping the train on the tracks, like just keeping it moving. I mean, I did just spend an hour with scheduling shit to. Jesus. The planning…

Shana James (38:54)

Yes, this morning I only got through one month of the basketball schedule and it took me 20 minutes to get it all entered into the calendar. Are you kidding me?

Alyson Lanier (39:03)

Yes, exactly. Then juggling, OK, well, if this, then that and OK, well, then that can’t happen. This needs to happen over there. I’m spending a ton of time doing that.

And I can tend to fall into just just making that happen. Like, let’s just let’s just make sure things are running smoothly and what that can do, because that I’m just focused on keeping the train running in that way.

Shana James (39:14)

It takes so much time.

Alyson Lanier (39:31)

Tripp’s like, do you realize that we have all but one night that’s free this week? He doesn’t want to live life like that, and I’m like, but the kid, and the…and he has other things and and so that’s one way very pragmatically that I love that he can anchor the value back to us, so then when I look at the schedule, I can keep that in mind and think, OK, wait a minute. Where’s the downtime for us as a family?

Shana James (40:01)

Where’s the downtime? Where’s the WE time?

Alyson Lanier (40:03)

Where’s the WE time for him and I? Where’s the WE time for the three of us? I’m missing the days where nothing is planned. You know, it’s like that needs to now be planned. that we need to have boundaries so that can happen. And he’s great at that. He’s great at that. Yeah.

Shana James (40:24)

This is incredibly helpful because I think it’s something every couple I know has struggled with or told me that they struggle with. The balance of WE with the rest of life, and how to make sure the WE doesn’t die on the vine. It’s not like we’re throwing out the children, or not paying attention to them – the schedule or not making the health appointments – but there has to be time for W if you want the relationship to thrive. So I appreciate you both standing for that.

Tripp Lanier (41:01)

I want to insert one thing. I think that if the WE eclipses the individual, then it’ll also fall apart.

And so we’ve talked a lot about the WE thing, but one thing we haven’t talked about is how much we do nurture our own individuality, because when we go do the things that feed us, whether it’s taking care of our bodies, or for me being in the ocean, or for her be beekeeping and whatever. We bring that energy into it. So if somehow the WE is weakening who we are as individuals, then we’re in a spiral there that there’s only so much that can happen.

There’s a whole other discipline here of what are we doing to take care of ourselves individually, so that we’re…

Shana James (41:45)

…keeping ourselves self alive!

Alyson Lanier (41:52)

That’s a huge piece. I didn’t bring it up, but I’m glad you did. In terms of a struggle, I’m largely more introverted than he is, and I like to have alone time to recharge. And I mean ALONE, like everybody out kind of alone.

Shana James (42:04)

Yeah. I think that’s one of those silent in the background things, where if you don’t realize that I have to take care of and nourish myself, I have to feel alive and vital, then that can be confusing.

If the WE time isn’t feeling exciting, or I don’t feel like I’ve got any energy for WE time, then we have to start to look back at the alone time.

Tripp Lanier (42:29)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Shana James (42:33)

Thank you both for being amazing examples of a relationship over the decades that is thriving and conscious and loving and playful, and where you both get to be yourselves. It’s rare sadly. I would like it to be less rare, and I think you two would like that as well for people you work with. So thank you for being a living example.

Tripp Lanier (42:58)

Thanks, Shana.

Alyson Lanier (42:58)

Thank you so much, Shana for doing what you do for all the folks out there that want it.

Shana James (43:00)

Thank you. Any last wrap ups and then we can say where to find both of you?

Alyson Lanier (43:12)

Just thanks for your work in the world.

Shana James (43:13)

Great. Yeah. Okay. So where can people find you and your work and you know, if they want more of you?

Alyson Lanier (43:20)

My website is getting revamped but AlisonLanier.com is good. Or just email me.

Shana James (43:35)

Awesome.

Okay, we’ll put your email in the show notes and Tripp I know you have the New Man podcast and you have a book and

you’re working on the second book.

Tripp Lanier (43:52)

Working on the second one. Yeah, it’s in process.

Alyson Lanier (43:57)

Yeah the book is more working on him

Tripp Lanier (44:02)

If anybody’s interested in the work I do with people, you can just go to tripplanier.com.

Shana James (44:02)

Awesome. Thank you both.

Alyson Lanier (44:10)

Thank you so much.

Tripp Lanier (44:10)

Thank you, Shana.

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#6: Stop “Farting” Around and Create Real, Secure Connection – Steve Horsmon

December 5, 2024 by Shana James Leave a Comment

Sometimes we are aware of pain or struggle in a relationship, without realizing we are the one who has a role in creating it. To have a healthy, satisfying relationship, we have to learn how to uplift a partner, rather than cut them down. Steve Horsmon lays out a path for clearing “farts” out of your relationship.

If you’re not satisfied with your love or sex-life, and could use some insights into what makes a person want more of you, tell me more about yourself here and we’ll schedule a time to talk.

Stop “Farting” Around and Create Real, Secure Connection: Show Notes

This week’s podcast guest shared one of the most powerful metaphors I’ve heard in a long time, and it involved a fart. 😂 I love when people mix humor and mic drop wisdom. There’s not much I find more satisfying!

He described the way our moods fill a room, similar to when a room becomes filled with the smell of a fart. It’s invisible, but there’s a huge impact! He talked about how people walk around in farty rooms, i.e. relationships, without realizing they’ve poisoned the intimacy, and then expect things like connection and sex to happen.

In other words, if you’re judging, criticizing, justifying, defending, or relating in such a way that the person you’re with doesn’t feel understood, seen, valued, or heard, you’re filling your relationship with stink. This is not the foundation for intimacy and passion to build or thrive.

Steve Horsmon is a coach for men who I deeply respect. He works with men in heterosexual relationships, helping them find their sovereignty and self-confidence, so they don’t feel dragged around by women, or life. He also supports men in the most dire moments, when they hear a woman say: “I’m not in love with you anymore.”

Steve and I have had many amazing conversations for a decade, and today’s is phenomenal. We discussed things like:

The havoc insecurity wreaks on dates and relationships, and how to create secure bonds
Covert contracts – the transactional idea that if you do what someone else wants, they’ll give you what you want
The lack of male role models in love
The poison of expectation, entitlement, judgment, pressure, and resentment
The story of Steve’s coach telling him: “You’re not yet the kind of guy who gets to have more sex and intimacy”
What to do when someone doesn’t feel valued or loved
The ineffectiveness of competition, trying to fix someone, and trying to get needs met
The power of a mature relationship where compassion, empathy and understanding goes both ways
How feelings of belonging, vulnerability, and being understood, seen, valued and heard, create incredibly sexy experiences
The shift from disappointment, disapproval, and dissatisfaction to acceptance, approval, and admiration
The power of your mind to create more love
A new way to think about confidence and security

Also, I created a quiz to help you get a sense of what keeps you from having the best love and sex of your life, especially after 40. I’d love for you to be the first to try it out. It can bring incredible insights, and I’d love your feedback about how it is to take it, and whether your results feel like they capture your situation.

>> Take the new quiz here to see what keeps you from having the best love and sex of your life <<

Then respond here with how the quiz went for you, or any questions you have.

Links:

Connect with Shana James

Honest Sex

Website

Curious what you’d need to become a better leader and lover? Take the quiz

For Women: Modern dating doesn’t have to be a nightmare for women

Connect with Steve

GoodGuys2GreatMen.com

Bio:

Steve Horsmon is an ex-student, ex-engineer, ex-program manager, ex-corporate educator, and an ex-husband. He’s been a good guy his whole life. Like all good guys he worked hard, made a decent living and treated people kindly. He tried to please everyone in his path – especially the women in his life. He always thought that was the key to success, satisfaction, and happiness. But he realized he was wrong. And what he learned he is now bringing to you by turning on the light for good guys who are struggling in their relationships with women. Steve is confident you WILL become the man you want to be and you WILL have the life you want to have!

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#5: Anxious + Avoidant Attachment Style Doesn’t Have To = The End – Jason and Violet Lange

November 21, 2024 by Shana James Leave a Comment

When one partner’s attachment style is anxious, and the other’s is avoidant, it can be painful for both. But you can learn to consciously communicate and create ways for each person to feel safe and valued. Today’s guests talk about how to lovingly collaborate and negotiate, to meet the needs and desires of each partner.

If you’re not satisfied with your love or sex-life, and could use some insights into what makes a person want more of you, tell me more about yourself here and we’ll schedule a time to talk.

Anxious + Avoidant Attachment Style Doesn’t Have To = The End: Show Notes

Have you ever loved someone, but found it challenging or painful to be in a relationship?

I laughed a bit as I wrote that because I think most of us would answer YES!

There are different reasons for this, but one of the main reasons that’s getting a lot of attention these days is attachment styles.

Have you explored your attachment style in romantic relationships?

To give a very basic description, attachment styles refer to how you engage in relationships (romantic and otherwise). There are 3 basic attachment styles: Secure, Anxious and Avoidant. Though, we can exhibit aspects of different styles at different times of our lives, and in different phases of relationship.

While I have become more secure over the years, I lean more toward an anxious style in the beginning of a relationship, and then have avoidant tendencies as a relationship progresses. My partner and I often joke with each other about our avoidant tendencies, since we thankfully both have them.

It’s likely you exhibit one of these styles more often, but you may also have secure, anxious, and avoidant moments. Dr. Stan Tatkin is a well known attachment therapist who created his own designations for these three attachment styles — Anchor, Wave and Island. To me, they feel more neutral, and easier to stomach, as we dissect our relational styles.

It’s incredibly powerful to understand your style and tendencies, and that of your partner, because love and good feelings alone don’t create healthy, lasting relationships. We need to understand the underpinnings of our conflict and upsets.

Today’s Practicing Love podcast guests, Jason and Violet Lange are a conscious couple, who both work as life and love coaches. They recently created a program for couples called Evolutionary Couples, where they give guidance for communication, intimacy, shared purpose, and more. Today, they get vulnerable about their attachment styles and the impact on their relationship. They’ve named one of their dynamics The Grenade at the Wall! Have a guess of who’s the grenade and who’s the wall?

It is so helpful to hear from a couple who consciously shares about their dynamic, without making either person wrong, and the ways they collaborate when they have breakdowns. In our powerful conversation we discussed…

How to stay away from the relationship fantasies that make us feel bad and wrong about ourselves
The true passion that arises from a sober view of romantic relationships
How to lovingly navigate a partner’s insecurities
What creates relational safety
The power of couples naming patterns and cycles
How to recognize when triggers are happening, rather than getting sucked in
The importance of bringing energy to a relationship, rather than showing up empty
Staying connected in the midst of desire conflicts
Dealing with socks on the floor and other annoying habits
The sacred practice of sexual generosity
Building trust through rupture and repair

Jason and Violet have a quite extraordinary love story, and they both started their relationship by being as honest as they could, to make sure they could be fully themselves with each other. They are also parents, which helps if you’re a parent who feels like you’re trying to keep a relationship alive in the midst of child-care and an overwhelming number of life responsibilities.

When you’re done with this episode, check out Jason’s episode on the Man Alive podcast, about a missing link to true power and great sex! And let me know if you have any questions or aha’s as you listen to either one.

Links:

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For Women: Modern dating doesn’t have to be a nightmare for women

Connect with Jason and Violet

EvolutionaryCouples.us

Bio:

Jason and Violet’s relationship purpose is to Radiate Love & Inspire Others into their Orbit of Depth & Fun. They coach men and women towards success in dating, intimacy and relationships, with over twenty years of combined experience.

Through their own journey, individually and together, they’ve worked through anxious / avoidant attachment patterns, reverse polarity, power dynamics, financial stress, parenting challenges, sexual trauma, fertility struggles, chore complaints and more.

Jason and Violet believe relationship is a spiritual path; it’s not easy, but with intention, you CAN cultivate ease…as well as passion, connection, and trust.

They met in a dream that Violet had, three weeks before meeting in real life (at a meet-up event on lucid dreaming!) But the heart of their love story is in the messy, hard, playful work they’ve put in over eight years, to make their cosmic dream a reality for themselves and for other couples.

Transcript:

Shana James (00:16.595)
Welcome to this episode of Practicing Love. I’m your host, Shana James, and excited to be here with an amazing couple doing incredible work in the world, Jason and Violet Lange. Jason is a men’s guide and facilitator, and Violet is a coach for women on love and dating and intimacy. So thank you to both so much for being here and also for being willing to be honest and vulnerable and talk about your challenges, struggles, not only for this podcast, but in front of each other.

We know that’s what it takes, right? Being able to talk to each other. But it’s a really special gift for people to get to hear and witness the two of you doing this in live time. So thank you.

Jason & Violet (01:08.634)
Our pleasure. This is going to be fun. Excited to be here.

Shana James (01:11.381)
Should we do a little like when Harry met Sally? Do you remember that movie or am I aging myself? Okay. You know, how did you meet? How did you find each other?

Violet (01:15.634)
We have kind of a cosmic love story because I was dating someone who was not Jason casually, and it felt like it wasn’t the right fit. I’m very sensitive and he was very sarcastic and I was kind of praying, meditating, just trying to figure out what I should do with that situation.

And one night I had a dream and this guy came up to me and put his hand on my heart and said, “Joe’s a 10 and you’re a 100. What are you doing with that guy?” And so I woke up laughing and my heart felt really warm and I took it as, okay, maybe I’m not supposed to be with Joe. And then three weeks later at a meetup event on lucid dreaming, the same guy from my dream walked up to me.

I said to the woman I stand next to, holy shit, I had a dream about that guy. Which is totally cool when you’re at a lucid dreaming event. Had I been at Trader Joe’s or something, maybe someone would have thought I was a bit crazy. And that was Jason. He introduced himself to me and we had many bumps along the road from that meeting until being officially a couple and everything.

But the night that I had the dream, he was in an Ayahuasca ceremony and was talking to grandmother and said, I want to be met by the feminine. And so that’s how we met. Kind of crazy. Pretty wild.

Shana James (02:41.141)
Wow, that is beautiful. Anything on your side, Jason? What it was like in your ceremony that night?

Jason (02:50.741)
Yeah, I had been on a journey. I’d been in a long term relationship that was great for my growth, but not my long term partner. It was really hard to leave that. And then I had a year of, I’m going to finally be the bachelor I always wanted to be and have all these experiences.

And I just fell right back into my old habits with women, and being kind of needy, and it wasn’t working out.

It was towards the end of the year that I was at the ceremony and it actually started in the ceremony itself because as I took the medicine. I was like: I’m ready to go. Let’s do this. I want to do my deep work. And I was stone cold sober. Just nothing hit, which is something I’ve wrestled with in the past.

So I kept taking more, kept taking more. And basically the whole night went by and I was stone cold. The medicine didn’t work for me.

Shana James (03:33.342)
Wow.

Jason (03:48.533)
Anyway, the beauty of that kind of medicine is I noticed I’m complaining to grandmother, the great feminine: I’m here, meet me…so I’m still chasing this thing and had this very deep moment of catching that – realizing that relaxing and then with as much agentic force as I think I’ve ever felt saying to the universe: I’m done chasing. I’m ready to be met. Meet me.

And then in about 20 seconds I went on a pretty wild journey for the next couple hours, alone. It so happens that was the night that she had a dream. And so it’s kind of wild, kind of crazy. We like to think I reached through the dream space and let her know I’m coming.

Shana James (04:19.871)
Amazing. I feel a little bit speechless. It’s such a powerful story. And for people who are a little bit more in general constructs or societal constructs, they think, what the hell? For me, loving to dance and play in those cosmic realms, it makes sense to me but it also still sometimes shocks me what is possible, and how much more connected we are, on so many levels that we cannot see or hear, or even sometimes feel with our physical selves.

Jason (05:20.863)
Absolutely. And then our relationship kind of took off from there.

Shana James (05:21.941)
You referred Violet to some bumps along the road. I’m curious, because I know I’ve had cosmically started relationships where in the cosmic realm, we were incredible partners, but in whatever this realm is there are some challenges. So what were some of the bumps that happened?

Violet (05:57.704)
I had done enough work, or had enough heartbreak that I wasn’t like, my God, this is my soulmate husband. I knew enough to check myself from getting too far into fantasy land. But I did have things that were important to me, one of which was to always bring my full truth, even if it was not accepted.

I was married in my twenties for five years in what was a sexless marriage, and at the end it was basically like an emotionless marriage as well. I was committed to not repeating that, but that meant I had to show up a lot more authentically. And that meant that, on our second date, he asked, what is it that you’re wanting?

The old me would have been like, I don’t know, you know to like see what evolves and find a partner. And instead I was like, I want to be in a healthy relationship and I want to be a mom and I want to have two kids. It doesn’t have to be with you but this is what I’m wanting.

And he was not at that time wanting to be in a relationship. He was curious if maybe he’d want to explore polyamory. There were a lot of questions on his side, of relational structure and timing. And part of our early dance was that I wanted more, but I discovered that I was willing to be with what arose without negating my desires, but also without pushing my agenda, which is kind of a fine balance.

And he was willing to be with my messiness, when I was feeling pained or when I was feeling uncertain. And after three or four months, we kind of found our way together, in a deeper way. In the early stages I had a lot of my fears come up, a lot of my insecurities. What did you have come up Jason?

Jason (07:55.295)
Our first big night out together is where this conflict arose. I said, I’m not sure I want to settle and jump right back into something. I had just been in a five year thing. And she was kind of clear what she wanted.

So it was kind of an intense, somewhat contentious triggered night because there was this simultaneous experience of, wow, I feel really connected and drawn to this person. And the question: Are we a right fit right now?

There was a moment, I think we were driving back from something, and we had been doing some authentic relating practices and she was pretty self-aware, and she was like: I think I want to go. I think I’m done.

I just had an intuition then that I wanted to go deeper. I want stay connected. And so we ended up going to a diner and then we actually went back to my house, my place. And initially I was gonna sleep on the couch, cause I had this just weird energy. And then it was a big moment for me cause I thought: I actually want to be close to this woman. I felt compelled to be close to her but being sexual didn’t feel right.

And so I said that. I said “I would actually like to sleep in the same bed with you and just not have any sexual contact, but just be close to you.” And she was open to that.

In a way, I think that templated something for us, that even in conflict we can come back to connection. For me it was a really novel experience because I really hadn’t been in a circumstance like that, where I could be authentic, and my partner could be authentic, where we could actually have a conflict of desire, but stay connected.

That was revolutionary for my family system, my being. And there was enough there that I think we both had this experience of, wow, we don’t know where this is going and how to label it or traditionally what it might look like. But there’s something here that keeps compelling us to come back to connection with each other and keep exploring it.

For me, it was an experience of wow, even though we’re not totally on the same page of everything, I can feel her leaning in and I want to lean in. That was very different for me.

Shana James (10:24.873)
There’s so much in there around leaning in when there is uncertainty. What will this become? Who are we going to be to each other? And what happens if we just keep bringing our truth and not expecting it to fall into the in the box fantasy? Which I think from what you’ve said, and from what I now live…the fantasies, they’re dead in a way, overall Disney fantasy of this is what a relationship looks like

Even being able to start a relationship with conflict and not thinking: this means this isn’t going to work, so we’re out…I think it was Alison Armstrong who said something like: if you’re incredibly drawn to someone or the sexual chemistry is so strong in the beginning, run the other way, because you’re probably playing out some old patterns. So, you two did it for real.

Jason (11:34.291)
Yeah, we had enough of a spark, but there was like a soberness to it too. Even though it was kind of a cosmic story, some of that didn’t get clear till later. There was just a realness and a spark, but I don’t think either of us were like flooded, in the sense of my God, I’m falling in love with this person and I’ve lost myself. It was more that I knew where I was and I got a sense she knew where she was, and there was something very real about it.

Shana James (12:07.775)
And mature, sounds like. That sobriety, or maturity with spark, is really powerful. And I think some people can miss the spark when it doesn’t feel flooded, like the fantasy. What were you going to say, Violet?

Violet (12:22.403)
Yeah. I think one thing that helped me that evening is that I felt safe with Jason, with his presence, but also safe enough in myself, with the work I had done. He shared his pivotal moment. My pivotal moment was when we were driving back to his place.

I can’t remember exactly what stage of the date, and I had been feeling triggered because I had felt this connection, and the dream, and all the things. And in my mind I was expecting something different. And I remember telling myself, I’m just going to take a chance and keep revealing. There’s this Buddhist practice where you just name the emotion as it arises, and you just keep naming it. He had this really old Vita pickup truck, and we’re cruising down the 101 or something in LA and I’m just saying: shame, fear, sadness, curiosity…

It was like three minutes. I was just naming my emotions and it was only on our second date. And he just received that all .He wasn’t like, what are you doing? Or like, why do you feel these things? Or get over yourself or come on. He listened and I revealed. And I think that also set a template of, it’s okay for me to reveal the fullness of who I am with this person.

Shana James (13:46.676)
Yes, I love that – the fullness of who you are. That way you can be in relationship and actually be the fullness of who you are, instead of trying to be someone you’re not, or even just dulling yourself down, or being worried that someone’s not going to love this part of you. It’s beautiful.

Okay, can we dive in a little bit to the struggle? One of them that you want to share?

Violet (14:20.445)
Sure. We call this the grenade at the wall because I’m the grenade and he’s the wall. I have an anxious attachment style, and it used to be more anxious. I would say I’m moving towards secure, but I will get really riled up, my nervous system and I will then sometimes provoke or test or attack.

In my experience, I’ve been withholding resentments, and so they’ve gotta come out at some point.

In his experience, it’s like, my God, you’re angry all the time.

I think, well, if you only knew all the stuff that I was not bringing up to you, out of a desire for harmony, out of a desire for respecting you, and also out of a desire for me catching myself, like what is just a mood or a projection versus what is really a truth I need to bring to him.

So we sometimes have this pattern. It still crops up where I get frustrated, and I will go on attack. And then the most vicious part of it, from my side is that I will threaten the relationship.

Shana James (15:37.388)
I used to do that.

Violet (15:40.485)
Like, I’ve been wanting more sex and it’s not happening and I hope you want me…I mean there’s gotta be someone who wants to fuck me…intense things that I should not say, that should not come out of my mouth, but from this wounded place I’m kind of poking. And then he has his dynamic in it.

Jason
Yeah, I’m the wall. She brought this to me once and actually I think it’s hilarious in that she’s said, “Sometimes talking to you is like talking to a wall, you know.”

I have deep presence, but I can be very internal in my experience and literally sometimes just forget to share, and invite her. Yeah, I’m so in my own kind of process from my family of origin. And then when I get stressed, I withdraw even more into that. Paradoxically, if I’m not getting enough connection, I withdraw from connection even more.

And so often my inner attention is on her, or the relationship or taking care of the family. But it’s all happening in here. So she has no idea what’s going on for me. And then I end up, in a way, neglecting our actual connection in the moment, because I’m so worried about something in the future. And so she starts to feel distant from me and insecure in her own way, wondering what’s going on? What’s happening for you?

And then sometimes the only way to break the wall is to throw the grenade. And that was kind of our crude version of that. And then I would kind of pop back into my body and I’d be there and I’d be present, and my frustration or anger or grief or something would come through. And then that would actually relax her because I was feeling.

Shana James (17:11.541)
Yes. Isn’t that fascinating?

Jason (17:37.714)
And I would say the other layer that I’ve uncovered in this for me is again going back to family of origin. It was this sense of feeling that the feminine is mad at me, from my relationship with my mom. It wasn’t even at me, but it was being around a feminine presence that was upset. And so my nervous system is super sensitive to that.

And so I map it to, you’re always mad at me because it triggers this deep thing in me, which isn’t really reality all the time. But that dance played itself out quite a bit, a number of times in all kinds of different capacities. And then, like she said, it’s not that we’ve gotten rid of it, but we’re a lot more refined.

Shana James (18:30.931)
Right. Well, that’s why the podcast is called Practicing Love, because it’s not that we get rid of these patterns, but I do think they get more refined. The fact that you two can name this so clearly is something many people don’t do, or don’t even think about doing. If we can actually track though – I do this, then you do this, then you do this, then I do this. And this is the downward spiral, and we can witness it together from the outside. Then there’s so much more consciousness and love available to navigate it.

Jason & Violet (18:55.995)
Yeah. And admittedly we had help. We’ve had to call in outside support, and we have our therapist on a bat dial, who we can call in a crisis, who knows us and knows our dance. And that’s been quite pivotal.

Practicing is such a great frame for it! We just moved, and we have another child coming and there’s just been a lot we’ve been managing in our lives. And it was maybe two months ago, for the first time I think I was like, it’s happening. I can feel I’ve been kind of lost in myself.

And it would be about 24 hours before she had a conversation with me, where she came in and said, “I can’t feel you, what’s going on? Where are you? Is this ever gonna work?”

I could feel it. And I could feel why her nervous system would feel that way, because I’ve been gone. And so I came towards her. And I think I literally just initiated sex. The whole dance was subverted. That’s something she had been able to communicate to me before: sometimes I just want to feel you coming towards me. That’s it. I just literally want to feel your energy coming towards me.

And that was an example, I think, of the practice paying off where I realized, wow, that was way easier than the big fight. But it took me tracking what was happening inside me, and a little bit inside her, and feeling like, yeah, it makes sense. This would be the point where I could just trail off here, and she would have to come forward and pull me out. But I could change the trajectory of this dance a little bit, and just come towards her, and then she didn’t have to get out the grenade.

Shana James (20:50.365)
Amazing. And what that says to me is that you were recognizing the impact you were having on the other person. You could easily look and think, God, she gets so angry. She’s pissed off. She’s just like my mom. She throws grenades. A

But to realize, if recognize my part in this, and I do my work and I shift, then she actually doesn’t have to throw a grenade. We can all shirk responsibility or take responsibility. And if we take responsibility for our own things, of course things go better.

You’ve got your own thing on your side, Violet, that you get to watch yourself do, and see how it impacts Jason. How incredible to see – I can track this in myself. And then I do the thing that she’s been asking for, that actually sounds like it felt better to you too, instead of pulling farther away. And then you were connected.

Violet (21:45.698)
Yeah, and I think for me, it’s been a lot of internal work around what are my triggers and recognizing I’m kind of replicating my dad’s energy in my family of origin. We have similar family of origin where our dads are a little more volatile and expressive, for lack of a better word, and our moms are more distant on both sides.

And so that was painful to recognize that I was just repeating that. But I’d catch myself in these little moments thinking, he left his socks on the floor outside of the shower. Is that really necessary? Because I’m a bit more of a neat freak. But then also realizing, wow, I get to see the shape of his foot in his socks.

And it’s like a mark that he was here and we don’t know what’s gonna come. Like I could die tomorrow, he could die tomorrow. And so celebrating the sweetness and the messiness of the partnership and intimacy, including dirty socks left on the floor, instead of being a murder or well, fine, I’ll pick them up, but then I’m gonna resent him for it.

And just last weekend or a few days ago, I had wanted him to clean up some of the stuff outside for a housewarming party and I thought, you know what? I can sweep the porch. He doesn’t have to sweep the porch. Yes, the outside is more his responsibility, but I can do it.

So I’m able to more easily catch myself instead of fixating on a detail to take a broader perspective. Cause at that moment I thought, but he also paid for our dog’s surgery and he also did these things… And it sounds very stereotypical transactional, like the man paid for this thing and therefore I’m cleaning the patio. But my work has been instead of getting myopic, and martyr energy, to take a broader view and recognize all the ways he is showing his love for me and he is really committed.

Shana James (23:37.269)
It’s like when you are about to buy a car, say you want to buy a Volkswagen and then you see all the VWs. So you start to look at how he has been showing me love instead of how hasn’t he been showing me love, and what are all the things he’s not doing?

I think that’s the sweetest description I’ve ever heard of socks on the floor, that it is like somebody’s footprint, and the reality that we don’t know how long we have. You don’t know how long we’re all going to be here at our age. People are dropping in ways that are quite terrifying.

So to get to turn that around and choose that. It’s a choice. It’s not a choice what arises, I don’t think, but I think it is a choice how we interpret it, and then how we bring it to somebody.

Violet (24:29.579)
Absolutely. I also noticed that my contempt of him, or resentment, was very easily getting picked up on by our daughter.

We went through this phase where she was like, I hate you daddy. I don’t want to be with you.

And part of it is because she and I just have this perhaps unhealthy, but very, very close merged attachment. But I realized too, that I have to be responsible for my thoughts and feelings about Jason. Cause not only does it impact him, and make him want to withdraw, but it also impacts her in a totally energetic level. I was never complaining about him or doing any of those things, but it was making a difference.

Shana James (25:06.227)
That’s incredible. I’m just thinking about that with kids, and how complicated it is when kids come into the picture and how relationships change. How old is your daughter?

Jason & Violet (25:17.953)
She’s almost five.

Shana James (25:19.431)
Sweet. And you have one on the way! That’s exciting. Congratulations.

Jason & Violet (25:24.033)
Thank you.

Shana James (25:27.303)
Okay, again, I’m feeling so grateful that you two are willing, as experts in this field to say that you’re not experts because you are perfect at this. You’re experts because you are committed to tracking yourselves, witnessing these dynamics and bringing more consciousness to being human and being in a relationship together.

Jason & Violet (25:50.697)
Yeah, absolutely. I want to celebrate one other little thing. Just this past weekend, we were going to a kid’s birthday party for one of Jason’s friends’ kids. And I had made the food, gotten the gifts together, had Ruby write the happy birthday cards and all the things. And I could feel myself getting frustrated and feeling overextended, or like: it’s his friends and I’m doing all the things, was my inner narrative.

And he probably noticed that and he said, as we were leaving, thank you so much for getting the gifts together. I really appreciate that. And all my animosity just disappeared. It was like, I feel seen. I feel seen! Thank you. So he’s picking up on things.

Although I have, in times past, said I really want to be acknowledged for this and this. I have told him the words I need to hear. But I guess I would describe it as a flow moment. Our patterns are still there, but we’re having more flow moments.

Shana James (26:44.361)
Amazing, yeah. Which I think is the upward spiral – as we’re more conscious about these patterns and you track them you can bypass that downward spiral. Then there’s more energy to go into that upward spiral of flow.

You’re giving amazing practices: noticing your inner narrative, checking yourself when you’re getting resentful, asking for appreciation, hanging out and waiting a little bit or reminding about the ways you’re being loved.

And on your side, Jason, you’re also noticing how you’re withdrawing, what your patterns are, how you can actually come to her in a way that she would really appreciate. That’s a ton right there.

Amazing. Anything else you can share about how you’re practicing?

Violet (27:49.015)
There was a while where we did have a more official date night, where we would do relational practices. We still do that sometimes. We’ve just been very busy with the move. but having time like set aside for a relationship.

And in 2018, we were really going through a tough time. We had a weekly clearing the air where we would talk about our resentments, or anything we were carrying or holding onto, and that seemed to really help.

We are both staunch believers in the importance of having solo time – time where we’re not together, time where I’m with friends, and he’s with friends. I call these self dates or pleasure dates, where I’m going to a museum by myself, or I’m doing something by myself.

I need that. I’m very social, but I can’t be around people 24-7. And I have to be accountable to bring something to the relationship, right? Like if I’m just coasting as an individual, how good of a partner am I gonna really be?

Because how much energy and love and novelty can I bring? It’s not always easy, but we definitely try to celebrate each other, spend time with others, or do stuff for ourselves.

Jason:
I would say that was one of the things that first drew me to her is that as I transitioned out of this other relationship I thought, my next partner definitely has to have her own support system – in terms of friends, therapists, practices, all that kind of stuff. And she definitely has that.

And we both cultivated that with a lot of intention. I think part of what an edge for me.

We have one kid, have another one on the way. We’re both entrepreneurs. You know this life.

There’s not a ton of free time, and there’s not necessarily a ton of free time for your relationship.

And it’s the shift to, sometimes it might be an hour a week, where we can actually just drop in and put our attention on each other. And so it’s my responsibility to take care of my nervous system. So I can show up in that hour and actually have enough energy and presence…

Shana James (30:18.485)
Ooh, that is huge. Yes.

Jason & Violet (30:21.911)
…available for connection. That’s been something I’ve had to really start to see lately – that when I’m under resourced, when I haven’t actually taken enough time to recharge myself, I’ll try to get the fake version of it, the sugar version I call it, of being on my phone, or staying up a little too late, watching another show when I don’t need to. And then I get more tired. And then when it’s time, I’m not actually available. I’m catatonic on the couch, like, can we just watch a show tonight?

There’s not much of me there for connection. And so it’s something I think I’ve had to get a lot better about. I think we do really prioritize each other. And it’s not easy. I lead retreats, or go on retreat for myself with men like three or four times a year, which puts a huge burden on her to be with our daughter and take care of the house. But so far, it’s been worth it because then I come back a little restored and able to be more present with my daughter.

And seeing the ways that, wow, I’m gonna really have to take some time for myself sometimes. So yesterday, I went on a big hike and it was great, with a guy in my men’s group. And I come back resourced, and now when we have time I can actually be with you, rather than being so exhausted that I don’t have anything to give you.

I think that’s a hard pill to swallow in a sense. I see, with a lot of clients I work with, they don’t want to own that. I ask, what’s happening in your nervous system when you are together? Are you so anxious or tired or just not even able to be there?

And that shift, I think, for me, like she said, it’s my responsibility to have something left in the tank to bring to our time together.

Shana James (32:15.989)
That’s amazing. I think it’s hard to see that one. Like you said, it’s not easy being an entrepreneur, a parent – there are all these things we’re doing. And yet if we’re not prioritizing each other enough to say, hey, during that one hour a week, I’m going to come with my tank at least full -ish enough that I can listen to you, that I can appreciate you, that I can be present… instead of, ugh, I’m drained, our kid’s driving me nuts, this is crazy, life is nuts, right? That’s a sacred moment, a sacred time.

Violet (32:41.762)
Absolutely. I’ve seen that with myself and with my clients too, especially during times of stress.

We think, I don’t have time for sex. I don’t have time for connection. It’s not a priority to me right now. And it’s not always sex for women, but I feel like we sometimes feel smug or entitled. Like, he hasn’t earned that, and I don’t want to bring that in, and it’s not a priority, and he hasn’t loaded the dishes or there’s a lot of story around why we won’t be physically available for our partnership?

And I’ve noticed sometimes being in that place, instead of thinking, the reason I don’t feel physically available is because when’s the last time I fantasized? When’s the last time I did a self -pleasure practice? When’s the last time I took a bath and felt relaxed in my body?

Being sexually generous, I think, is a devotional practice that we can offer our partners regardless of our gender identity. But can I be resourced enough to be sexually generous with my partner?

Shana James (34:01.833)
Beautiful. And I think it can also go back to asking for, hey, if I could have this hour for myself, to go take a bath or do a self pleasure practice or something, I know I would have more to bring back to you tomorrow night on our date or whatever. Would you be willing to help? That kind of coordination and not just settling for, I don’t have any time. Instead of struggling and doing it on my own, as a strong independent woman.

These are awesome. Thank you so much for sharing all of this. And I can imagine someone listening, having so many things to think about ,and so many ways to practice, hearing you.

Yeah, anything else you want to leave us with before we guide people to find you?

Jason & Violet (35:05.193)
I’ve been on this metaphor for the last couple of weeks, I think, because it’s part of our journey was that intensity we talked about it, of falling in love or getting swept off your feet.

When you think about it, it’s pretty crazy because in falling I have no control. It’s kind of a weird thing versus – I think where we’re at in our relationship in my experience is it’s like we’ve kind of earned and created the love in a sense, in that process of rupture and repair.

Every time we repair it’s like we’re weaving another thread and our tapestry keeps getting stronger, and more together, and more resilient, which paradoxically means I trust our ability to move through conflict even more so. It’s less frightening to move into conflict.

It’s like, we’ve been disconnected before. We’ve had fights before. So there’s a deeper relaxation and trust that I’m experiencing coming forward. We’ve pretty much navigated everything that’s come our way. So anything scary I think we can deal with, right?

So there doesn’t have to be that extra level of bracing of like: My God, what might happen? It can just be, okay, if anything happens, we can work through it and we have the tools and the resources around us now to do it.

Shana James (36:31.743)
We got this. Amazing. Thank you.

Jason & Violet (36:39.396)
All I would say is thanks for doing this podcast. think it’s such a good service to the world that love is a practice, and relationship is a practice. It doesn’t just happen.

And just like any practice, it takes continual intention. I don’t say work. It takes awareness. And I think a lot of times we, as a society, put our energy into things like our work or our family or our projects. And then we just kind of expect our relationships to thrive.

Shana James (37:06.645)
Totally.

Jason & Violet (37:06.788)
And then when they don’t, we’re like, I picked the wrong partner or they’re just like my parent, but it would be like only doing your work two hours a week and expecting to still get your paycheck.

Shana James (37:17.855)
Right, expecting it. Or not taking care of your kid and expecting them to grow up in a way that’s actually healthy and a good contribution to society, right? There’s nothing else I think we do where we expect it to just happen as much as relationships.

Jason & Violet (37:42.757)
Yeah, it takes an active tending of the fire of what’s between us.

Shana James (37:51.775)
Thank you.
Where can people find more of you?

Jason & Violet (37:57.31)
We work with couples at a website called evolutionary couples dot us. And that’s where we have a program where we do live calls and Pre-recorded content.

It’s called 12 epic dates and it’s mapped out everything from polarity to finances to clearing resentments to adventure. So, evolutionary couples dot us is a great place to start if you’re in partnership. Other places you can go or my website is violetlange .com but it has not been updated in a few years so probably better to just email me if you have any questions which is violet @ violetlange .com.

And for men out there I work primarily with men at evolutionary .men, and do all kinds of men’s groups and shadow work and dating and relationships stuff.

It’s a pretty exciting time for us because it’s the first time we’ve created something together and brought our two two worlds together so to speak, and the program we’re creating for couples is pretty much sourced for couples who only have an hour or two a week to put towards your relational unit – so how do you maximize that time, as you know parents and entrepreneurs and busy people? What’s the structure that’s gonna lead to connection and depth?

Because that’s about all we’ve been able to carve out in these last years, but it’s enough. When you do it and you have the right practices, it really can be enough.

Shana James (39:27.711)
Agreed. Thank you so much for being here.

Jason & Violet (39:31.844)
Thank you for having us.

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#4: How to Make it Through Challenges Together – Jed Diamond

November 14, 2024 by Shana James Leave a Comment

Love can be a challenge. On this episode of Practicing Love, we delve into why it isn’t like fairytales and movies tell us it should be.

How to Make it Through Challenges Together: Show Notes

Love as a feeling is delightful, expansive and nourishing. Most of us seek out this feeling.

Love as a practice, on the other hand, can be raw, scary, and humbling.

It’s not something my clients are initially excited about – until they realize that love as a feeling comes and goes. And love as a feeling isn’t something we can count on.

When you turn love into a practice, you make it possible to experience the good feelings of love, for longer.

The practice of love allows love to deepen and become more connected, rather than fade, fizzle, or implode.

The practice of love creates more moments of understanding, and fewer moments of conflict.

When I want to understand how relationships work, and what it takes to make love deeper and stronger, I look to people who have faced trials and tribulations, and who have learned from their challenges. My mentor, and friend Jed Diamond’s tagline is: Confessions from a twice divorced marriage counselor.

Jed has been married three times and is currently in a 44 year marriage. He has been a marriage and family therapist for more than 50 years, and is the author of 16 books, including Male Menopause, The Enlightened Marriage, Healing the Father Wound, and so many more. Jed writes regularly for his Men Alive community and is highly sought after for his expertise in supporting men.

Any time I get to talk with Jed it’s meaningful and important. I’m excited for you to listen. On today’s Practicing Love episode we discussed…

Why Jed has gotten remarried every 15 years in his 44 year marriage
The 5 stages of relationship (hint: they don’t include happily ever after)
The power of redefining love in different life stages
Why disillusionment doesn’t have to be the end of a relationship, and how navigating it consciously can create lasting love
The expanded level of nuance in sex, and how to expand beyond the physical, especially as we age
How to navigate the worry about loss of sexual functioning
Getting to know your partner as a new lover day after day
Offering support we didn’t even know we were capable of
Communication as the key to navigating challenges
The power of vulnerability to create stronger bonds

After Jed’s wife Carlin broke her hip, and then had a stroke, life radically changed for them. Jed has been a consistent example of using challenges to create more intimacy, gratitude, and love. I hope I can be as graceful and open as Jed is when I’m in my 80’s.

I hope you enjoy the podcast. When you’re done you’ll find more of Jed on my previous podcast: Man Alive.

This is Jed’s episode on relief for men’s anger and irritability

This is Jed’s episode on the Father Wound

This is Jed’s episode on what men need most these days

Links:

Connect with Shana James

Honest Sex

Website

Curious what you’d need to become a better leader and lover? Take the quiz

For Women: Modern dating doesn’t have to be a nightmare for women

Connect with Dr. Jed

MenAlive

Bio:

Jed has a masters degree in social work and a PhD in International Health. In 1968, he founded MenAlive to be a health program that helps men live long and well. Though focused on men’s health, MenAlive is also for women who care about the health of the men in their lives. His passion in life is to support men, and the women who love them, in eliminating the stresses that undermine their health and wreck relationships.

His mission with MenAlive seeks to help men, and the women who love them, successfully navigate the unique stresses of life in the 21st century, so that all our relationships can survive and prosper.

The economic and ecological changes going on in the world are unprecedented in human history. Everyone is impacted, but particularly men, and more specifically men over 40. His vision for MenAlive is to focus on critical aspects of men’s health and well-being. MenAlive is a safe haven in this time of transition. It offers time-tested resources to help you when you need it the most. It’s a place you can trust for yourself and your loved ones, a place we can all come together to share our experiences to help us weather the storm. None of us have all the answers, but together we can find our way.

He is a member of the Medical Advisory Board of Ro, The Patient Company. He is also associated with Riane Eisler’s Center for Partnership Systems and Good Therapy. He blogs regularly for The Good Men Project and Medium.

He’s the author of 16 books including the international best-selling Male Menopause and Surviving Male Menopause that have thus far been translated into 22 foreign languages. The Irritable Male Syndrome: Understanding and Managing the 4 Key Causes of Depression and Aggression, Mr. Mean: Saving Your Relationship from the Irritable Male Syndrome, The Enlightened Marriage and 12 Rules for Good Men are also developing a world-wide readership.

His work has been featured in major newspapers throughout the United States including the New York Times, Boston Globe, Wall Street Journal, The Los Angeles Times, and USA Today. He has been featured on more than 1,000 radio and T.V. programs including The View with Barbara Walters, Good Morning America, Today Show, CNN-360 with Anderson Cooper, CNN with Glenn Beck, CBS, NBC, Fox News, and To Tell the Truth. Jed has also done a nationally televised special on Male Menopause for PBS.

His wife, Carlin, and Jed live in Northern California. They’re proud parents of five grown children, seventeen grandchildren, and two great-grandchildren.

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#3: What Love is When You Don’t Betray Yourself – Ashlynn Allen

November 7, 2024 by Shana James Leave a Comment

After divorce or betrayal, many people give up on love. But discovering what love really is, and how to create a loving partnership where you don’t lose or betray yourself, is one of the most fulfilling and growthful journeys in life. Ashlynn Allen helps you find the courage to experience what love can be, while you stay true to yourself.

What Love is When You Don’t Betray Yourself: Show Notes

While love can be exciting and rewarding, it can also be scary and painful. Most of us have been hurt in relationships in which love was supposed to be a core value.

It can hurt to stay in a relationship. It can hurt when we’re left. And it can even hurt to leave a relationship.

The way I see it, there is no escaping pain when we open to love. But as I learned to see love as a path of growth, I began to see that every relationship gave me a better understanding of myself, and of love. While this didn’t take the pain away, it dissolved the stories about what was wrong with me. This allowed me to digest the pain, so I could find the wisdom each relationship brought.

As my patterns became more apparent, it allowed me to make healthier and more conscious choices, and speak up about my needs and desires. In each relationship I’ve been in, I have learned to love better AND stay more true to myself.

On today’s Practicing Love podcast, I talked with Ashlynn Allen, a coach and mentor for women who have experienced betrayal, with a partner and/or themselves. Ashlynn faced both kinds of betrayals and took the risk to love again. In her current relationship, now in her 40’s, she says she discovered what love actually is!

In our deeply touching conversation about starting over and staying true to yourself, we discussed…

The incredible clarity that comes when you know what you want and need
How to share feelings in a way that can be heard and received
How to communicate deeper than “I feel like you…” (which is not actually a feeling)
What to do with the need for validation
How to get out of critical cycles
The stories we tell ourselves when we feel hurt by a partner
Tapping into the vulnerability beneath your surface complaints
Creating agreements that allow couples to support each other
What to do when you look at your partner and forget the love you share
The power of learning from divorce and breakups

As you listen to Ashlynn vulnerably speak about how she didn’t learn to feel emotions until age 34, and how she has wrestled with how to share her feelings instead of blaming her partner, I think you’ll gain compassion for yourself and everyone you have loved. Most of us were never taught how to create a healthy relationship. Ashlynn lets you in on how she is learning to stay connected, even in moments when she is tempted to blame her partner.

Here’s to you having the love life you want, and remembering that it takes practice.

Links:

Connect with Shana James

Honest Sex

Website

Curious what you’d need to become a better leader and lover? Take the quiz

For Women: Modern dating doesn’t have to be a nightmare for women

Connect with Ashlynn

ThisIsAshlynn.com

Bio:

Having seen many challenges in life, Ashlynn knows that joy is possible, even when life hasn’t gone as you hoped.

She co-hosted the TOP 10 Relationship Podcast The Betrayed, The Addicted & The Expert & now has her own show called This Is Ashlynn where she speaks to all parts of life. She mentors women, helping them move into better emotional & physical health after betrayal & divorce. She hosts online & in person retreats to help you move beyond life’s circumstances, and create the life you’ve always wanted.

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How to Be Less Irritated With Your Partner: Show Notes

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Stop “Farting” Around and Create Real, Secure Connection: Show Notes

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Anxious + Avoidant Attachment Style Doesn’t Have To = The End: Show Notes

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How to Make it Through Challenges Together: Show Notes

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What Love is When You Don’t Betray Yourself: Show Notes

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