One of the keys to healthy, strong, connected relationships is emotional intelligence. Learning to listen and love from a deeper place doesn’t come easy to many of us, but it can be learned! An expert in the field of awareness and relationship skills, Daniel Ellenberg brings powerful wisdom to have stronger and more satisfying relationships.
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Emotional Intelligence in Relationships = More Love: Show Notes
These days it is rare for people to maintain the feeling of love in relationships as time goes on. So, when I meet people who have been in relationships for decades, and still seem loving and connected, I often ask — What’s your secret? How have you made love last?
Over the last decade or so, more people are talking about Emotional Intelligence. This is one of the things people tell me about, even if they don’t have the terminology for it.
Emotional intelligence is the ability to recognize, understand and manage your emotions + relate to others’ emotions with empathy, understanding, and skill.
When two people bring the capacity to communicate honestly, and navigate conflict and vulnerability without shutting down or blowing up, love can stay alive.
Whether you’re dating or in a relationship, making love a practice is how we grow and learn to love better. Most of us were never taught these skills, so be kind to yourself as you learn.
Today’s guest, Daniel Ellenberg, is leadership consultant and an expert in the field of awareness and relationship skills. He is the author of book Lovers for Life: Creating Lasting Passion, Trust, and True Partnership, the president of Relationships That Work and directs Strength with Heart men’s groups, training, and seminars.
In our important conversation we discussed….
- Becoming an anthropologist of your own mind
- The difference between being emotional and being reactive
- Trying on the lens of compassion with others
- How to work on oneself rather than try to change someone else
- What happens when we don’t make room for feeling fear
- How taking things personally can be a doorway to personal freedom
- Inquiring with yourself about WHY you’re talking
Daniel is a wise and seasoned human, who has been studying and practicing love, relationships and consciousness for decades. I highly recommend listening and trying on his perspectives! And if you want more after listening to this one, check out Daniel’s Man Alive episode on the Transformational Power of Male Compassion.
Links:
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Bio:
Daniel helps CEOs, VPs, managers, engineers, scientists, artists, and others realize and develop their greatest asset — their MINDS. He helps leaders update their internal operating systems to meet the needs and demands of an increasingly complex and changing world. He recognizes that developing a thriving mindset is the best place to grow an extraordinary skillset — including the capacity to navigate important conversations and relationships, execute strategic planning, foster team development, and embrace any other essential competencies.
As a change agent, he occupies different yet related roles: executive and leadership coach, organizational trainer, group facilitator, consultant, advisor, therapist, and researcher. He focuses on helping people build inspiring, successful professional careers and personal lives.
An expert in the field of awareness and relationship skills, Daniel has presented at major conferences, businesses, and universities. A published author, he contributed to the book *The Communication Path* and with his wife, Judith Bell, he co-authored a chapter in Mastering the Art of Success Volume 8, as well as the book Lovers for Life: Creating Lasting Passion, Trust, and True Partnership. Daniel is also president of Relationships That Work and directs Strength with Heart men’s groups, training, and seminars.
Transcript:
Shana James, M.A. (00:04.29)
Hello and welcome to this episode of Practicing Love. I am your host, Shana James, and I have an amazing guest here today who has been in the field of relationships and men’s work and an advisor and a consultant for leaders for many, many decades. Daniel Ellenberg, I’m grateful to have you here.
And for the listeners, when I was in grad school 20 something years ago, I found your book, Lovers for Life. And I was so excited about it because that has been my passion forever. And I really love how you talked about creating trust and respect and passion, for as long as we are alive. I’m so grateful that we get to talk to you, and hear about your love life, and about how emotional intelligence in relationships leads to more success and satisfaction
Daniel S Ellenberg (00:56.964)
Happy to do so and a pleasure to be with you, Shana, as always.
Shana James, M.A. (01:01.154)
Thank you. I know you’ve written books since then, and that every time we talk about it, you say, that was a long time ago.
Daniel S Ellenberg (01:08.336)
Well, it was, it was 30 years ago. You know, I am older than 34. So it feels like a past incarnation of me.
Shana James, M.A. (01:21.708)
Yes, that makes sense.
Can you tell us a little bit about your current relationship to set the stage a little bit? Have you been in a relationship for a long time? Or anything that you want people to know.
Daniel S Ellenberg (01:39.504)
Well, I’m still married to the woman I wrote the book with, so that may indeed be a clue. We’ve had many struggles over the years, of course. And I was thinking maybe we should have actually called the title Lovers of Strife, because we’ve had a lot of strife.
Shana James, M.A. (01:43.17)
Amazing and honest.
Daniel S Ellenberg (02:06.34)
But now things are more compassionate and loving and easier than they’ve ever been.
Shana James, M.A. (02:10.702)
I appreciate that you wrote the book Lovers for Life, and it could have been Lovers for Life with Strife.
But I think that honest, right? I mean, a lot of people are sold this idealized fantasy or vision that relationship can just be great and happy and it takes something to keep it alive.
Daniel S Ellenberg (02:31.662)
Yeah, yeah, it’s so easy, right? What could go wrong? For sure.
Shana James, M.A. (02:40.234)
What would you say, before we dive into what the struggles were – What kept you going and what kept you able to stay in relationship?
Daniel S Ellenberg (02:49.976)
Resilience. And I think part of resilience is an awareness of possibility, and a movement toward that which is possible, versus that which pulls one down into the underworld. Not that we weren’t pulled down many times, but it’s kind of like the Japanese proverb, fall down seven times, stand up eight.
Shana James, M.A. (03:17.134)
I like that.
Daniel S Ellenberg (03:18.46)
And I think that that’s a pretty good proverb for life because I know for me personally, my moods are more vacillating than some people. They’ve gotten more even over the years, but it’s just not the nature of the beast that has made me.
Shana James, M.A. (03:31.458)
Yeah, it’s not me either. You seem like you’ve got some fire and some passion.
Daniel S Ellenberg (03:45.552)
Yes, a fire sign! That’s where it all began, right? I don’t actually believe that.
Yes, I definitely have a lot of fire and I have a good amount of water also. so the tears can flow and the anger can emerge. It’s all part of the complexity of being a human being. And I think that one of the big issues that many people suffer from is the sin of consistency.
That means that they think they should always be consistent and when they have a moment of insecurity or even more than a moment, then all of a sudden, I am insecure.
And the experience itself becomes their identity. And I just think that life is, and human beings are, way more complex than that. And so I know for me, part of what’s been most freeing over the years is knowing that there are ways that I’m super competent, and I feel like I know what I’m doing. And I know ways that I’m clueless and I’m aware that I’m clueless.
When I’d be in a confident state, I would feel confident and think I’m always going to be confident. And when I’m insecure, I’d think I’m just an insecure person. And the reality is that everything is true. And it depends on what aspect of myself gets triggered.
This is part of emotional Intelligence in relationships.
Shana James, M.A. (05:07.884)
Right. And if there’s space for everything to be true, then you don’t have to hold up some facade, right? Like I am the rock. I’ve got it all together. I can’t show any “weakness.” Then it’s actually just your humanity.
Daniel S Ellenberg (05:14.584)
Absolutely. Exactly. I mean, this is one of the issues that face a lot of men. I’m not trying to say that women don’t have their own issues with this, but I’ll just speak about the male side, which I know more about, certainly from my own personal experience and my own professional experience, leading men’s groups for 40 years.
I’ve worked with thousands of men and I have a pretty good sense of the territory. And this thing about being a rock, and always strong, and never in doubt and not showing or being pulled under or not being vulnerable.
It’s just such nonsense! I mean, we’re not wired like that. And the reality is the ultimate vulnerability is death and trying to control for that. So there are things that are inherently wrong about the model. And it’s the model that seems to persist.
Shana James, M.A. (06:13.782)
The model, yeah. And the box.
Daniel S Ellenberg (06:18.512)
Shall we say, You don’t have to go that far in the world these days to say, wow, it’s the return of a certain kind of masculinity beliefs, not that they’re ever left.
Shana James, M.A. (06:34.614)
Ok, maybe this is where we can get into a little bit of the struggle.
Was some of the struggle that emotionality, or is there something else that feels more top of mind that you can say that is one of your big struggles?
Daniel S Ellenberg (07:05.626)
Well, I I know a lot of times people say, “Well, that person’s so emotional.” This is something that’s not the most accurate way of talking about it. I think the more accurate way of talking about it is that the person’s very reactive, very defensive and then reacting from a defensive place.
They feel threatened in some way and then unmitigated threats, the experience of automatic triggers and some defensive reaction, fight or flight.
People have their own preferred default defenses, as it were. So I don’t like when the whole thing about, “oh, the person’s so emotional.” We’re emotional beings!
Shana James, M.A. (07:46.328)
Right, and there’s a distinction there, right?
It’s not just if someone’s very emotional but they have a capacity to be able to go through these emotions, and to stay connected to people with these emotions. That’s very different than if someone’s very reactive.
Daniel S Ellenberg (08:00.368)
Absolutely. I mean, think about emotion as energy in motion. So emotions themselves by the very nature of emotions are fluid. If you’re angry for a moment, you might let go and feel some sadness there, and then you’re going open up to a feeling more loving and more spacious.
It’s part of the human condition. But when we judge the emotions, we kind of grip onto them. And that’s when they start turning into more reactive tendencies.
Shana James, M.A. (08:30.678)
Right, that’s my experience too, that as we judge them. It’s like a pressure cooker. And if we can’t express them, then they get stuck and it’s more volcanic and at some point they come out.
Daniel S Ellenberg (08:39.312)
Exactly.
That’s some of the core of male psychology right there. Because if there’s not room to experience fear, for example, and there isn’t for a lot of guys, it becomes part of a kind of precarious manhood. Then what do you do with that? It’s a real experience. And so instead of actually just breathing in and going, this is what’s real for me. And to be accepting of that and accepting is to accept the way things are, it’s: No, it shouldn’t be that way. I shouldn’t be like that. And whenever that happens, then you’re opening up to a whole panoply of issues that lead into some of the bad mental and physical health impacts.
Because they’re just not accepting: I have a pain here. The fight is: No, I don’t.
You do. And the reality is paradoxically, the more you accept what is, the more it can change. But you can’t do it strategically. I mean, it has to be deeply spiritual, philosophical and emotional.
Shana James, M.A. (10:00.994)
Right. If you are in denial of what’s happening, then there’s really nowhere to go from there because you’re stuck in a rigid identity like you’re saying. Versus, “shit, it’s really hard for me to admit that I’m afraid because when I was younger, so and so told me that I was a piece of shit if I got afraid. So now, fuck, I don’t want to bring that to my partner. Or who and what do I do with that?”
But if we’re denying the fear, then where do you go? Breakdown usually.
Daniel S Ellenberg (10:39.082)
Yes and we’re more interested in breakthroughs.
So how to do that? Paradoxically, again, it just starts with, this is the way it is. I think that so much suffering in life comes from fighting the nature of things. I know on one level, I’m so aware of that in myself.
For example, I’m not terribly happy with the political outcomes, and where we’re at right now in this country. And when I’m, what I call, excuse my language, mumblefucking, I don’t feel good. When I think, “this is what is.” This is the way things are, whether or not it should be or shouldn’t be….
Shana James, M.A. (11:27.128)
This is what is. Right, they’re all stories, stories and ideas. And I’m thinking about how we create these stories, or these judgments or ideas, on top of what actually is.
Daniel S Ellenberg (11:45.988)
Yes, and that certainly shows up in relationships: how my wife should be, how I should be, how she should respond to this.
I think I’ve been schooled by, I say, the school of hard knocks. My skull was a little thicker, as was my hair when I was younger. And I feel like I’ve been the rocks on the side of the ocean that have been pounded by the ocean, and they’ve softened.
Those jagged edges have softened here because to some degree I’ve paid attention – Ouch this hurts. Don’t do that. It only took about 10,000 times for me to kind of get certain things. So I’ve learned for example to practice what a friend mine told me many years ago, the acronym of WAIT, which stands for why am I talking?
Shana James, M.A. (12:17.174)
I love that one. That’s nicer than my way of saying to myself “shut the fuck up and just sit.” Okay, why am I talking?
Daniel S Ellenberg (12:45.52)
I’m glad we can’t fucking curse on this. Ha ha!
It’s getting real with the human condition, and being more what I would call, not just self acceptance, but selves acceptance. That’s really what I was talking at the very beginning, is that we have different aspects of ourselves and they can exist autonomously.
And you think, that’s not me. Well, guess what? It is. That too, and that too, and that too.
The Trump part of me just wants to dominate the world. I have that part of me. It’s a part, right? And the question isn’t whether you have the part or not. The question is, are you aware of the part? Does the part dominate you?
Shana James, M.A. (13:42.786)
What do you do with the part?
Daniel S Ellenberg (13:48.246)
Am I on some level reflective of that part, and being able to be a bit more of an overseer of that, and to actually work at transforming that in a way of looking at what does that part really want?
Control itself is not a bad thing. Most of us want some level of control, certainly over our steering wheel, and over our diet and over many things in life.
I think that somehow control has gotten a bad name in some quarters, that you shouldn’t want to control. It’s nonsense. It’s really a question of what type of control and when.
Control can be context specific. Sometimes it’s important to just let go of all control. Like to some degree in sex – try and control sex, not a good thing.
Shana James, M.A. (14:30.573)
Right, well usually there’s frustration and then it doesn’t go the right way. Then there’s upset versus, “Wow, what is actually happening in this moment and how do we flow with it?”
Daniel S Ellenberg (14:52.976)
Right. And how do I get present? I just get present.
I know that you wanted to talk a little bit about sex. I know there have been times when my wife and I have been sexual and it’s not going well. And then we just pause here and breathe, and be with what is and maybe we’re not turned on or not interested. That happens.
Shana James, M.A. (15:14.646)
It happens, right? And if you make that wrong, then you’re further down the spiral and farther away from that intimacy versus, huh, I wonder what’s actually going on here.
Can we talk a little bit about a one struggle you’ve had in relationship over time? Maybe it’s more like a theme that has followed you through all of these decades, or maybe it’s something that you work with recently, but what’s one of the things that you can share that helps people understand? Some of your humanity that may be part of their humanity?
Daniel S Ellenberg (15:47.76)
Probably anger. I grew up with a super angry, rageful father. And apparently he did also. I didn’t know his father. I grew up in a very critical and judgmental environment – people were angry all the time. And so I learned that.
I do believe I was born as a very sweet and innocent little boy, the youngest of three and being in this environment, it was survival, to get pissed. Get out of my room. Leave me alone…
Shana James, M.A. (16:24.866)
That was how the common way people just talk to each other. And that was the lesser of it, I’m sure.
Daniel S Ellenberg (16:27.842)
The least. I internalize that quite a lot. have a term I call it psychosomosis.
How we take in all these messages to the permeable membranes in the brain and once inside, they take residency. This is also what contributes to our hearts. And so I would, as a younger guy, I’d be pissed off all the time. Things pissed me off. I wasn’t shy about expressing it. I was shy in many ways but not about expressing my anger.
And you’ll be shocked to know that it didn’t always go well. It’s hard to picture it, isn’t it? Ha ha!
Shana James, M.A. (17:11.374)
That is shocking.
Daniel S Ellenberg (17:23.472)
And so over the years, I would act out, not just in lover relationships, but friendships and family and that was just a common MO. But I was someone who was actually pretty good at contrition and…
Shana James, M.A. (17:41.486)
You can say, “that wasn’t my best,” or “that wasn’t what I wanted to do.”
Daniel S Ellenberg (17:45.2)
Yeah, I would apologize. I didn’t end too many relationships from anger. But it was a big part. And certainly when I met my wife when I was 32, and I’d already been through a bunch of different relationships. I was engaged to a different person who I broke it off with. And I was a different person at 32 than I am at 71 now. But it’s also still in me.
I think about brain development. Those early experiences are just part of the nature of the beast. So I have watched that. And that’s why I practice waiting much more often than not these days. The opposite of when I was younger.
And over the years that I’d be reactive, I’d be pissed off about something and shockingly enough, my wife would be hurt and go angry in response…
It’s not like it doesn’t ever happen. I don’t know what the percentage is, but it is much smaller. And we’ve healed a lot in terms of an integrated trust. We’ve always been able to talk about things. We led our first workshop together after we’ve been together for six weeks. We were very quick into it, and we led couples groups.
Shana James, M.A. (19:14.222)
It’s amazing that you could talk about things because I believe that’s one of the keys, right? To be able to overcome some of these struggles and know, – we have these parts, we have our humanity, we’ve learned these unfortunate behaviors. And if we can talk about it, and we can actually lovingly, respectfully understand what just happened, and how do we change this dynamic, then things can actually move forward.
Daniel S Ellenberg (19:45.592)
Absolutely. And what’s sad to me, Shanna, is that so little of our education is really founded in the most important human capacity there is. I mean, actually, there’s two, I think, that are really relevant here. One is the ability to self-reflect and know oneself and understand that you didn’t piss me off. You did something that triggered something in me.
The source is me. The source isn’t you. But that’s not something that’s particularly taught – that actually so much of what we’re reacting from is our beliefs about ourselves. And they get activated in relationships with other people.
So okay, if you’re aware of those, i.e. that you don’t actually feel so significant. The person didn’t respond in email. It’s triggering the thought: I don’t really matter. I’m chopped liver in some way.
How do I work with my own sense of significance that’s not predicated on getting you to see how significant I am?
And it’s interesting because I think it’s kind of like though doth protest too much. If you’re trying to show how important you are, because it’s predicated on getting something back from the outer world, you keep reinforcing that that’s the source.
Now, obviously it’s great when you get it. I’m not dismissing that at all. I think it’s wonderful to be acknowledged. But most people, even when they’re acknowledged, don’t take it in.
They don’t actually let it become part of their mental and emotional real estate.
Shana James, M.A. (21:43.086)
I was with my partner last night. I said something and he was said, “yeah, you too.”
And I was like, you’ve got to at least take a breath and take it in.
Daniel S Ellenberg (21:52.688)
Did he?
Shana James, M.A. (21:54.085)
He did. Yeah, it was good. And then he made me do it. And I said, OK, I’ll do it. We can both do it.
Daniel S Ellenberg (21:59.364)
Yes, he made you do that, he?
Shana James, M.A. (22:00.073)
Ok, he did not make me do that! He invited me to do that as well.
Daniel S Ellenberg (22:05.365)
He invited you. But it is interesting how we reveal our beliefs in a certain way.
I’m not talking about you in particular there, but through our language. And I think that part of what’s useful in terms of developing more “selves awareness” is to notice what comes out and be more curious than ashamed.
Shana James, M.A. (22:12.662)
Yes, you can call me out.
Part of me still thinks people can make me do things versus, he suggested it, and I had my own…
Daniel S Ellenberg (22:40.624)
Your own choice?
Shana James, M.A. (22:40.864)
Yes, my own choice. Yeah, we can say choice for my perimenopausal brain fog that can’t always come up with the right word in the moment. My own volition! Yes, there it is.
Daniel S Ellenberg (22:49.242)
Yes, absolutely. It’s hard to get, especially when you’ve been programmed. I don’t mean you in particular. In a certain way we’re all robots in particular ways. And I think that the more each of us can kind of step back from the system, that issue, and see: there is me and my internal experience of myself and my beliefs about myself, and my behaviors that are common to me.
And then there’s that capacity to really step back and notice, as non-judgmentally as possible. And that’s the other thing that I think is not taught at all, is the communication about, and then the recognition that there is a system. There’s the Shana system, and everyone who’s listening to this podcast.
You are both an individual, and this larger system is really based on so many things that are not you, but now they are. And so where do you end and the world begins?
Shana James, M.A. (24:05.314)
Yeah, that willingness to question, I think, anything and everything about yourself. Is this real? Is this who I wanna be? Is this what I want to do?
To me, that makes a difference too, to not just say, “well, that’s me,” or “that’s who I am,” or “I learned that, so I have to respond that way.” I don’t believe that. I think we can change in those ways.
Daniel S Ellenberg (24:31.438)
Absolutely.
Shana James, M.A. (24:33.335)
But that takes that non-judgmental curiosity of what is actually happening here.
Daniel S Ellenberg (24:40.176)
I agree with you, and maybe a little addition to that is to question everything, I think some people might hear that as like, don’t actually have any ground of being, that everything becomes something to doubt, and it could trigger a kind of obsessive, “is this real?” And so I think that it’s very useful to have a sense of what’s important.
I.e. one’s values and asking: am I living in accordance with my values? I mean, you and I know each other because of our connection to compassion and particularly around men and boys. We’ve been doing some projects together and involved in some different organizations that are related to that, and compassion is a huge value in life.
Shana James, M.A. (25:23.054)
Yes.
Daniel S Ellenberg (25:38.288)
And I use that as a lens to see, to get fine with the ground in a certain way.
Because when I look at what I was talking about before, about being angry, and being pissed off and reactive about something, vs being compassionate – they’re not exactly kissing cousins, shall we say. Maybe we should talk about kissing cousins.
I don’t mean it in a weird way. But I do think that I use that lens quite often because the system that I – whoever this I is – has been conditioned and very impacted by so many causes and conditions and contexts that are outside of anything that I chose as an individual.
They were part of the psychosomosis I was referencing earlier. And so I try to go, “OK, I want to rip that person’s whatever. I mean, I don’t tend to be physically violent…
Shana James, M.A. (26:48.898)
Yeah, ok but right now I’m seeing red…
Daniel S Ellenberg (26:53.68)
Yeah, and how can I get to compassion? It’s not quite second nature.
Sometimes it just easily emerges with some people in some situations, but I wouldn’t say it’s an easy one.
Shana James, M.A. (27:09.526)
No, it’s a practice. That’s why I’m calling this Practicing Love.
I have to practice looking for compassion at times when, something as simple as someone cuts me off and I think, how can I have compassion for that person? And the closest people in my life – my child, my partner, my dear friends and family. How do I have compassion for them?
Daniel S Ellenberg (27:13.626)
Exactly.
Right. Right. I think about the Yogi Berra line, the old Yankee baseball player who’s given many funny lines. One of them was, in theory, there’s no difference between theory and practice. But in practice there is.
And so we have a theory about compassion. I should always be compassionate. It’s a lovely theory.
But then the rubber hits the road. And then it’s really the practice. And the practice of it is really what brings it into being. And so I think that a lot of times people think they should be experiencing something naturally. That it’s just intrinsic to who I am, versus something that you actually have to work on.
Shana James, M.A. (28:21.838)
Yeah, especially this kind of communication and intimacy and relationality.
I mean, to think that we are just born knowing how to do it is crazy. I’m watching my 13 year old and all of these seventh graders and the shitty things they’re saying to each other. And it’s so disappointing. But the reality is, most of us were not given the tools at the young age, and we learned very counterproductive ways of being in a relationship.
Daniel S Ellenberg (28:55.36)
Yeah, garbage in, garbage out. That’s part of it. That’s why I think that when we look at the idea of the psychoosmosis, and to some level paradoxically and perhaps strangely to not take it so personally.
Shana James, M.A. (29:00.366)
Yes. Do you have any advice or tips for that? Because it’s one that many of my clients have struggled with, and there are ways I work with it, but I’m always curious how other people work with it because it’s not an easy one.
Daniel S Ellenberg (29:30.49)
Tell me more about how you’re defining it.
Shana James, M.A. (29:33.858)
Taking something personally. For example, I hear something you’re saying and I think, that means I’m wrong, I’m bad, or that means you’re blaming me, or any of those ways that we then want to defend, or prove that we’re good enough.
Daniel S Ellenberg (29:57.712)
Well, for starters, it’s an issue about self-worth, and awareness and to recognize that the source of the reaction, shockingly enough, is within you. Not the other person. We were talking about that a little earlier, Shana.
Then, I think this is a fundamental difference in terms of one’s personal freedom – there’s looking at the world from a dynamic, versus looking at the world as a dynamic.
When you’re talking about someone taking it personally, you’re caught in a certain pattern.
And let’s face it, that’s not going to be something that just suddenly goes away. And so the practice to me, I don’t mean that there’s just one, but certainly one would be taking a breath.
Just like you told your partner to take a breath. Not that he was being defensive, but a little bit maybe.
And taking a breath, and just pausing. The power of pause, You pause and notice, huh, that’s interesting. What is that about? And so to some degree, you become an anthropologist or a psychologist of your own mind. And that’s what I mean by looking at yourself as a system.
Reacting and then feeling ashamed about the reaction doesn’t lead toward learning or growth.
Shame is one of the most important ways we don’t change. It’s a protective defense. And so to take it personally and then ask: Are there other ways of looking at this?
What you’re trying to do is expand your psychological flexibility and look at what other possibilities exist. This is actually another person. Maybe they have a brain also. I mean, I’m being a bit glib.
And asking, what is going on that’s leading to this? And then there’s also, what do I really want here?
Because when I think about how I think my wife and my relationship has transformed over the years, the fighter part of me, which is pretty well developed as I was alluding to earlier, then it’s asking is that what I really want?
This is where the values come in, in terms of behavior change. It’s like, I want love and peace, but if I say this…
And so it becomes this process of learning from yourself in a certain way. You know, because it’s not second nature to do this. And so in order to change a pattern, you have to see the pattern. And then I think have a value that’s associated to that that says – Don’t do that. It’s putting a pause on that.
Some people might think you’re not being spontaneous. And I say, damn right you’re not.
Does spontaneity always serve? That looks like a great cliff to jump off of. I think the water’s probably deep enough for me. What could possibly go wrong? No, you want to be circumspect about these things. And to be able to kind of step back from the dynamic. For me, it’s a lifelong process, as a recovering, reactive person.
So it’s not really a question of not losing balance. You’re going to lose balance. But a slip doesn’t need to lead to a slide. And it isn’t about a steady state and always being in charge and the top of things. It’s about how quickly can you get back on the horse. As much as it’d be ideal to never lose your balance, well, good luck on that.
Shana James, M.A. (34:12.814)
Yeah, it’s going to happen. We’re gonna fall off. We are going to lose it. So, how do you recover?
I like that. How quickly do you get back on the horse and how can you work with yourself to pause and self-reflect and find those other possibilities?
Daniel S Ellenberg (34:49.2)
Yeah. There’s a great story about a sensei master who had a student who came up to him and he said, “Master, you’re amazing. You never lose your balance.” To which he responded, “au contraire.” He probably didn’t say au contraire. He was not a Frenchman. I won’t even pretend a phony French accent here.
So he said, “actually, I often lose my balance. I just know how to regain it quickly.”
And that’s the deal. Some people lose their balance, and then start freaking out. Then you lose your balance more. It’s like if you’re giving a talk and you start feeling all of a sudden anxious and you think. I don’t want to feel anxious here. Well, too bad. You are. However, this is part of it. This is what’s emerged.
Shana James, M.A. (35:42.697)
That’s what’s happening. Beautiful.
Daniel S Ellenberg (35:48.324)
This is what I have to breathe into. Keep breathing with…
Shana James, M.A. (35:52.558)
Yes, thank you so much. This is full of wisdom and the deepest guidance I have experienced around how to actually be human together, and be humble, and be connected and intimate. And I really appreciate your going to the depths of the depths to support people’s relationships.
Daniel S Ellenberg (36:20.432)
Thank you. I actually feel a little teary hearing you say that.
Shana James, M.A. (36:25.262)
Mmm.
Daniel S Ellenberg (36:30.064)
It’s been a long and often painful journey. And I do have a big heart and I want love in the world. And I see that that value in relation to my hatred, or the part of me that hates. It’s dystonic in a way. So it’s a constant process of…
Shana James, M.A. (36:58.062)
…transmuting in a way. Hate to love, hate to love, right? And it’s not easy, like you said, and I just honor so much the commitment to the practice, especially when it’s not easy.
Daniel S Ellenberg (37:15.568)
Thank you.
Shana James, M.A. (37:16.972)
Thank you for being here and talking about emotional intelligence in relationships.
Daniel S Ellenberg (37:20.63)
My pleasure. Always lovely being with you, Shana. You’re the real deal.
Shana James, M.A. (37:23.95)
Thank you. Aw, thanks. That feels good. Takes one to know one.
Anywhere you wanna guide people to find you, or do you not want to be found in this moment?
Daniel S Ellenberg (37:37.136)
Well, I’m not doing work as a therapist anymore. I have a few clients and I ended my men’s groups. I’m doing more work around men, boys, and compassion. And really, I’m particularly interested in getting involved, strangely enough, politically as a consultant around, frankly, the democratic problem with guys.
I can see some of the problems. If people are interested in talking about some larger world issues and organizations they’re working with, I really want to keep moving the paradigm forward because I don’t see us surviving if we don’t change the dominant paradigm, power over mentality. And fear.
The whole Trumpian power over, never admit you’re wrong. It’s one of the worst aspects of rigid, restrictive masculine beliefs. So I’m interested in people who are interested in potentially joining the Men and Boys Compassion Coalition.
I’m also still doing some leadership coaching for people who lead organizations who are involved, I do a little bit of that as well. So I’m open.
Shana James, M.A. (39:22.67)
Great, okay. We’ll put some links so people can reach out to you. Thank you so much.
Daniel S Ellenberg (39:27.664)
Okay, great. Thank you.
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