This episode is for anyone who wants to communicate more effectively, stay connected during conflict, and build a relationship that can weather hard moments with greater compassion and clarity.
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How Not to Get Divorced: A Divorce Coach’s Keys to Stay in Love Longer: Show Notes
It makes sense that the people who understand why relationships end, are also the ones who can teach us how to stay connected, and avoid breakups and divorce.
On today’s Practicing Love podcast, I talk with Rachael Sloane, a divorce coach and NLP practitioner who works primarily with men navigating separation and divorce. She is the creator of the Better Beyond Divorce course, which supports men to develop emotional regulation, communication skills, and a healthier relationship with themselves — skills many were never taught, but desperately needed in partnership, and beyond.
Rather than focusing on Rachael’s specialty of how to navigate divorce, we explored what causes relationships to unravel, and thus what helps them stay intact.
We talked about:
- Why emotional regulation is the foundation of healthy communication
- How conflict escalates when we’re in fight-or-flight (and why it’s like being emotionally drunk)
- The difference between your healthy self, wounded self, and survival self — and how to speak to your partner’s healthy self even when s/he is activated
- Why curiosity works better than fixing
- How unconscious childhood patterns sneak into adult relationships
- What boundaries really are (and why they’re not rules for your partner)
- And how separating positive intention from destructive strategies can change everything
One of the most powerful insights Rachael shared is this:
Most couples don’t struggle because of a lack of love. They struggle because they don’t know how to regulate themselves, and stay connected, when love feels threatened.
If you’re in a relationship, longing for one, healing from one, or wanting to do things differently than what you’ve seen modeled… this episode is for you.
My hope is that this conversation offers you compassion, clarity, and practical tools, especially for the moments when connection feels hardest.
Links:
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Connect with Rachael
Bio:
Rachael Sloan is a certified life coach and Master NLP Practitioner specializing in helping men navigate the emotional aftermath of unwanted divorce. She teaches practical tools for nervous system regulation, attachment healing, and emotional resilience — helping men move from survival mode into calm, grounded self-leadership. Rachael is the founder of the Better Beyond Divorce program, a space where men learn how to heal, rebuild confidence, and trust themselves again.
Transcript:
Shana James (00:02)
Hello and welcome to this episode of Practicing Love. I’m your host, Shana James, and I’m here with an amazing woman, Rachael Sloan. She’s an NLP practitioner and life coach who works mostly with men who are separating, divorcing, or already divorced.
The spin I want to bring to today’s podcast is for those of you who are listening who are still in a relationship, because today’s conversation is really about how to save your marriage from divorce, or what to do if you’re in a phase where things aren’t going well and you’re wondering, How do we save this?
We are going to talk today about How NOT to get divorced. We want you to have love that lasts longer.
It might also be that you’re in a relationship that is going well, and you don’t ever want to head down that path. And for those of you who are single or dating, this is important too — because you want to understand these dynamics so you don’t create a relationship without a healthy foundation.
So Rachael, thank you so much for being here today.
Rachael Sloan (01:00)
Yes, Shana, thank you so much for having me. I’m really excited to talk about this topic. It’s something a lot of my clients say they wish I would teach — because they wish they had learned some of these things sooner.
And as you were describing who might be interested in this conversation, I was thinking about how the work I do with divorced men has had a huge impact on my own marriage. There are so many lessons to be learned from the end of a relationship that can help make a relationship healthy.
Shana James (01:24)
Oh, I love that.
And let’s be honest — I’ve been divorced for about 13 years. It’s not that we can necessarily save every relationship, or even that that’s always the right path. For me, divorce was the right choice, and I don’t regret it.
At the same time, there are relationships where I can clearly see that if people had the tools — if they had more understanding of emotional regulation, how we impact each other, and relational dynamics — the love that’s clearly there might actually have a chance to be felt and lived.
Rachael Sloan (02:07)
Yeah, definitely. I see that with my clients too — those two paths.
Some of them do the emotional regulation work, and they also learn to recognize their past patterns: how their childhood experiences impacted how they give and receive love, or how they handle conflict. Some of them look back and say, If I had understood these things about myself — or about her — we probably could have worked through it.
Shana James (02:20)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Rachael Sloan (02:36)
But I also have clients who look back and say, It’s great that I know these things now, but we weren’t the right partners for each other. And there are reasons it’s actually better for both of us to be apart. So it really can go both ways.
Shana James (02:42)
Right. Right.
So for the sake of this conversation, let’s work with the idea that if you’re listening, you’re listening from the perspective of wanting this relationship to work.
Whether you’re dating and creating a new relationship, or you’re currently in one. And if you’re ending a relationship, you can listen to this for a future one. But we’re going to focus on this question:
What do you do — and what do you learn — from men who’ve gone through divorce and now say, If I had known this before, maybe my relationship wouldn’t have ended?
Rachael Sloan (03:29)
I think one of the most impactful things — and it’s definitely something that helps me as a coach — is understanding that for everyone, whether it’s you or your partner, everything you’re doing, saying, or feeling is driven by a positive intention.
I use a concept in my coaching called the healthy self. There’s a psychological model — it has some limits, but it’s really useful — that suggests we all have a healthy self who’s grounded in reality, calm, clear, knows what’s good for us, and makes good decisions. It’s basically who we are when our nervous system is regulated — when we’re at our best.
Shana James (03:48)
Mm.
Rachael Sloan (03:59)
But we also all have a wounded self — the part of us that’s been hurt and learned it’s not safe to be ourselves in the world.
Shana James (04:11)
Yeah, yeah. Totally. It does so many things to try to protect and feel worthy.
Rachael Sloan (04:27)
Exactly. The parts that have been damaged, let down, or betrayed.
And then we also have a survival self — the part that comes out to protect those wounds. The survival self can be ugly. It can say horrible things. I think of it like this: even if you have a really sweet dog, if it’s backed into a corner and hit with a stick, it’s going to bite.
Shana James (04:35)
Mm.
Yep. That image of being backed into a corner — what we do when we feel trapped.
Rachael Sloan (04:57)
Right.
And it can frighten people how extreme the survival self can be. But when you think about its role — survival — it makes sense. If you’re being attacked by a lion, you’ll do whatever it takes to survive. Even if that means running and leaving others behind. Staying alive becomes the priority.
Shana James (05:05)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. You’ll do whatever it takes.
Rachael Sloan (05:30)
And when we fight in relationships — or even when we don’t fight but get activated — that survival self comes out.
One of the most powerful things I’ve learned, both personally and through my work, is that no matter what my husband’s survival self is doing, his healthy self still exists. And so does mine.
If you can learn to see and speak to the healthy self — even when that’s not the version they’re presenting — it calms the situation. Giving your partner the grace of believing their healthy self exists, even when they can’t access it, is crucial.
Shana James (05:57)
Yes. It really is.
I often call this the masterclass — because in that moment, you’re trying not to be triggered by their trigger, while managing your own survival self. Finding the healthy self in you that can see beyond what’s being presented takes a lot of work and learning.
Rachael Sloan (06:30)
And your survival self is coming out too.
Shana James (06:47)
Exactly. But when you can recognize that what’s coming through is a wound or a protective response — not the whole person — there’s space for connection instead of collapse.
Rachael Sloan (07:13)
Yeah. I’ve had some really powerful experiences with clients practicing this. And if you want to get into it, there are some great NLP visualizations that help people see the healthy self more clearly.
Shana James (07:30)
And for those who don’t know — NLP, or Neuro-Linguistic Programming, is a modality. How would you describe it briefly?
Rachael Sloan (07:39)
Yeah. It’s a coaching tool — a set of perspectives and questions that help us understand how people create their internal experience of reality. What you’re seeing, hearing, and feeling internally, and how that shapes how you show up.
When people can see the survival self for what it is, one of the coolest outcomes is how much conflict gets diffused.
Shana James (08:05)
Right. Yeah, that’s great.
Rachael Sloan (08:08)
I see this most clearly with men talking to their ex-wives. I’ve had clients notice conflict starting to escalate — buttons being pushed — and instead of reacting, they stayed connected to the healthy self.
And they’ll say, It was amazing. She calmed down. We had a productive conversation about the kids. It didn’t spiral.
That doesn’t always happen — sometimes people need time to self-regulate — but often it can reverse a spiraling situation.
Shana James (08:44)
Yes. Totally.
And for people still in relationships, it’s the same practice. There’s a chapter in my book called something like, You’re Not Who You Think You Are — and Neither Is Your Partner.
When we stop seeing our partner as the villain and speak to the deeper self, conflict softens and compassion grows.
Rachael Sloan (09:17)
I remember that.
Shana James (09:29)
And I love that your men are learning this.
Rachael Sloan (09:40)
Yeah. And honestly, when I look back, this is something my husband has always done well. Especially early in our marriage, before I knew anything about emotional regulation. He never held my survival responses against me — and when I reflect on that, I realize how lucky I’ve been.
Shana James (09:57)
Nice.
Rachael Sloan (10:12)
He never saw me as my survival self. He always saw me. And being on the receiving end of that — my God — it was such a gift. I don’t think I appreciated it nearly enough when I was younger.
Now, I’m honestly just so impressed by his capacity to do that. Because even when you’re in that activated survival state, you can feel it when someone still sees you. Sometimes you can’t respond to it — there might be shame or guilt, or you’re just too activated — but there’s a bond and a love there that’s deeply healing.
Shana James (10:14)
What a gift.
You can feel it.
Mm-hmm.
Rachael Sloan (10:42)
Yeah. It really is.
Shana James (10:48)
And instead of going further down that downward spiral, it at least neutralizes things. Like you said, it may not work immediately, but it gets in somewhere.
When I first got married, I also didn’t have much capacity to emotionally regulate — sometimes, sure, but often I would unravel. I’d threaten things like, Maybe we’re not meant to do this, or Maybe this should end.
And I think this tool would have been incredibly helpful back then.
Rachael Sloan (11:18)
Yeah. I think it gives you room.
If you can do this for your partner — and also for yourself — it gives you space. Because you can say, Okay, yes, I’m activated. Maybe I can’t step into my healthy self right now. But I’m being reminded that it’s there.
And that creates room for, This will pass. I will regulate. I can come back.
Shana James (11:26)
I was just thinking that too.
Yes.
Rachael Sloan (11:45)
And in the early parts of my marriage, one of my biggest challenges was that if I got activated or said something I regretted, it didn’t feel okay to come back to normal.
It was like, Well, I got mad — now I have to stay mad. There was shame or guilt around letting it go.
But remembering the healthy self — whether your partner reflects it to you or you do it for yourself — gives you permission to come out of that state and remember, I’m still me. I’ve always been me.
Then the question becomes: how do I practice more of that?
Shana James (11:59)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Rachael Sloan (12:14)
Yeah.
Shana James (12:18)
Right. There’s a self-forgiveness piece here too.
And I’m also wondering about curiosity — because for me, if I can’t fully accept myself or my partner in a moment, curiosity can act like a bridge. A doorway.
Like, Maybe what I’m seeing isn’t the whole truth.
Rachael Sloan (12:46)
Yes. If you talk to any of my clients, they’ll tell you I’m always saying, Be curious. Especially when you don’t know what to do.
Whether you’re working with your own feelings or someone else’s, if you don’t know what to say or how to fix it — get curious. Listen to understand. Yourself, and them.
Shana James (12:56)
Mm-hmm.
Rachael Sloan (13:14)
This happens all the time in coaching. People come in with a problem and want a solution. If I put pressure on myself to solve it right away, we wouldn’t get very far.
So instead, I get curious. I always assume that if we gather enough information, the solution will reveal itself.
Shana James (13:22)
Yeah.
Mm.
Rachael Sloan (13:42)
So whenever I feel stuck, I ask: What can we be curious about?
The feeling. The experience. The underlying intention of the person who’s upset.
And honestly, if I can stay curious, I’ve never stayed stuck. Something always opens.
Shana James (13:45)
I like that.
There’s always something revealed. And it strikes me that there’s a difference between curiosity from the same team — being on the same side — versus curiosity that’s actually about proving you’re right.
“I’m curious… but only so I can win.” That kind of curiosity doesn’t work as well.
Rachael Sloan (14:11)
Yeah. My gosh, yes.
You have to be curious about the other person’s humanity. Not curious about how they’re a monster.
Although I will say — if you’re curious enough, even about how someone seems monstrous, and you keep asking questions, you’ll usually discover they’re not.
Shana James (14:28)
Mm-hmm.
Mmm, I love that.
Rachael Sloan (14:44)
I see this a lot with my divorced clients. Many of the men I work with didn’t choose the divorce. Some have been accused of being narcissistic or abusive, and they’re left wondering, Am I a monster? Am I a bad person? A horrible husband?
So we get curious about that. We don’t avoid it. We go in.
Why do you think you’re a monster? What happened? What was going on when you acted that way?
Shana James (14:49)
Yes.
Right — not avoiding the question, actually going into it.
Rachael Sloan (15:13)
And if we stay curious long enough, it always makes sense in the end. Even if the behavior isn’t acceptable, the motivation is almost always understandable.
Shana James (15:17)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Like you said — there’s a positive intention there.
Rachael Sloan (15:36)
There is. And it’s usually about safety or love. Rooted in what we’ve lived through.
Shana James (15:42)
Mm-hmm.
One of my phrases for couples has been assume the best — assume your partner isn’t trying to hurt you, and then get curious.
But I love how you’re framing this too. Terry Real talks about this idea that the content matters less than which self you’re coming from.
If you’re coming from the curious, healthy self, you can explore even painful things. The other states — defense, collapse, freeze — don’t allow that.
Rachael Sloan (16:31)
Yeah. They feel threatened.
And that’s often the hardest part of this work in relationship: if one person is activated, the other usually is too. Our nervous systems co-regulate — especially when we’re physically close.
That can be a gift, but it can also be a huge challenge. You walk into a room and someone’s anxious or angry, and you feel it immediately.
Shana James (16:44)
Mm-hmm.
And then you’re dysregulated too.
Rachael Sloan (17:00)
Exactly. Which is why learning self-regulation skills is so important. It gets easier the more you practice.
Shana James (17:02)
Yeah.
Can you talk a bit about that? What skills do you help your clients learn to regulate?
Rachael Sloan (17:15)
Yeah. When I first started coaching, I focused mostly on cognitive tools — working with thoughts. But I quickly realized we couldn’t start there.
If someone is activated — in fight or flight — the logical brain just isn’t accessible. So with all my clients, we start with a 30-day emotional regulation crash course.
Shana James (17:33)
Yeah.
That makes sense.
Rachael Sloan (17:49)
For most people, it feels weird at first because it’s not what we’re taught. I do a lot of body-based regulation.
A simple place to start is just noticing your body. Can you feel your right foot? Your left knee? Most people can feel something — and notice how it’s different from the other side.
Shana James (18:00)
Nice.
Though there are people I’ve worked with who say, I know I have a foot… but I don’t really feel it. That’s a different relationship to the body.
Rachael Sloan (18:23)
That’s true. Some people are very visual or auditory, and some have been chronically activated for so long that their nervous system protects them by disconnecting from the body — dissociation.
I was talking to a man the other day who said, I feel like an empty space with a seatbelt on. He was sitting in his car when we talked.
Shana James (18:34)
Wow.
Rachael Sloan (18:54)
I asked him to feel into his body, and he said, I know I have a body — the seatbelt’s here — but… even that was distant.
Shana James (18:57)
That awareness alone — I feel like empty space — that’s profound.
Rachael Sloan (19:03)
Yeah — and that’s really the beginning of emotional regulation: noticing, Wow, I can’t feel my body.
Even with that man, I asked, Can you feel the car seat against your thighs? And he said yes. He could feel his back against the seat. He could feel the air moving through his nose as he breathed.
So he started to feel the outlines of his body. Maybe he couldn’t feel what was happening in his chest yet, or inside his right foot — but that’s okay.
Shana James (19:09)
Yes, yes, yes.
Rachael Sloan (19:32)
It really is a skillset — learning to feel into the body.
Even if what you feel is emptiness or nothing, the act of trying to feel activates the medial prefrontal cortex. Dr. Bessel van der Kolk writes about this in The Body Keeps the Score, which is one of my favorite books for emotional regulation work.
That part of the brain has direct neural connections to the limbic system — where fear, adrenaline, and the survival self live.
Shana James (19:36)
Yes.
Rachael Sloan (19:59)
And here’s the key difference: the logical, problem-solving part of our brain does not have that direct connection.
So it can’t calm the nervous system directly — even though we try to use it that way. Right?
We think, I shouldn’t be anxious. Everything’s okay. I’ve prepared. I’ll be fine.
But none of that actually reaches the part of the brain that’s feeling anxious.
Shana James (20:12)
Yep.
Right.
Yeah.
Yes.
Rachael Sloan (20:28)
But when we ask, How do I feel anxious? Where is anxiety in my body? and we try to feel it — that activates the medial prefrontal cortex, which immediately starts sending calming signals to the limbic system.
There are lots of tools for this, but that’s where I start with all my clients: helping them feel what’s happening in the body and then using that awareness to meet emotions as they arise.
Shana James (20:33)
Mm-hmm.
So powerful.
Rachael Sloan (20:55)
You can do this for initial regulation, and you can also go deeper — to understand what an emotion is really about and why you’re feeling what you’re feeling.
Shana James (20:57)
Yeah.
It’s so important because you can say the same words in different states.
If you’re aware of your body, your breath, and you’re grounded, those words land one way. But if you say the same words from a frantic or survival place, they land completely differently — for you and for the person you’re talking to.
Rachael Sloan (21:26)
Yeah, exactly.
I work with men who tell me they feel like they repel people. Or a really common one: My wife says I yell all the time, but I don’t think I’m yelling.
And he probably isn’t yelling — but about 80% of communication is nonverbal.
Shana James (21:42)
Mm-hmm.
Something’s yelling in him, right?
Rachael Sloan (21:57)
Right.
It comes out in body language, facial expression, posture — all these things he can’t consciously control. Even eye contact, tone, subtle shifts in voice.
And interestingly, the way we hear also changes when we’re activated.
Shana James (22:11)
Wow.
Rachael Sloan (22:25)
When you’re in fight-or-flight, the bones in your inner ear actually change shape. The more activated you are, the more hypersensitive you become to very high-pitched and very low-pitched sounds.
You lose the ability to hear the middle tones — which is where most human speech lives.
Shana James (22:30)
Wow. Amazing.
Rachael Sloan (22:55)
So if your partner is activated, they’re missing many of the cues you’re sending. They’re more likely to misunderstand you because they literally can’t hear you the same way in that state — which is wild.
Shana James (23:07)
Right.
And it also takes it beyond the personal. Not that we don’t take responsibility for ourselves, but there’s less shame and self-blame when we understand that this is biology.
These things happen because of how we’re wired — and then we get to choose how we work with that.
Rachael Sloan (23:40)
Yes. One thing I’m practicing in my own marriage is noticing when I start to get activated.
I tell my clients it’s like being drunk. When you’re activated, you think you’re being logical — I’m fine, I can drive, just give me the keys.
But no… you can’t.
Shana James (23:54)
Oh my goodness.
Rachael Sloan (24:10)
Right?
So when we understand, This isn’t because something’s wrong with me — this is just what happens when I go into fight-or-flight, then we can work with it earlier.
I can self-regulate, or I can say, I’m getting activated, so this isn’t the moment to have a deep conversation.
Shana James (24:26)
Yes.
Rachael Sloan (24:39)
That awareness is huge.
Because then I can wait. Or I can say, We need to talk about this later — I’m not capable of communicating well right now.
Shana James (24:44)
That’s huge.
When I think back to my marriage, so many of our conflicts happened late at night — often with alcohol involved. We weren’t regulated. We weren’t attuned. And it was so painful.
Rachael Sloan (25:11)
I had that too early in my marriage.
My husband used to reference the phrase in vino veritas — when you’re drunk, the truth comes out. But that’s actually not true.
What comes out is fear. Survival truths. We’re disconnected from the healthy self.
Shana James (25:37)
Yes.
Rachael Sloan (25:41)
We’re detached from that part of ourselves.
Shana James (25:45)
Right.
In Honest Sex, I talk about different kinds of truth. When we access the healthier, more vulnerable truth — instead of fear-based truth — there’s room to connect.
Otherwise, we just burn the house down.
Rachael Sloan (25:54)
Yeah.
Sometimes to the ground.
Shana James (26:11)
This is amazing. We’re obviously just touching the tip of the iceberg, but what else do you work with men on — things that might have helped if they were still in the relationship?
Rachael Sloan (26:19)
Yeah. There are a few places we could go. I’ll name a couple and you can tell me what feels most interesting.
We do a lot of work on identity — who you are outside the relationship. That’s huge for confidence in future relationships.
We work on emotional boundaries — taking responsibility for what’s mine, being present for you, but not taking responsibility for what’s yours.
And later, when men are ready for new relationships, we focus on communication skills and understanding patterns — what they’ve brought into relationships and how to shift what’s not serving them.
Shana James (26:37)
Okay. I love that.
Rachael Sloan (27:00)
Yeah.
Shana James (27:23)
I recently worked with a couple who said, We’ve never had this before — we can actually see the pattern now.
Once you see the cycle from the outside, you can be together in it instead of trapped by it.
I do a lot of communication work too, but right now I’d love to hear more about emotional boundaries. Many people I work with struggle to believe they can have boundaries and be loving — without attacking or withdrawing.
How do you talk about emotional boundaries?
Rachael Sloan (28:07)
Yeah.
When I talk about boundaries, many people assume I mean setting rules for their partner. So I usually start by saying: this has nothing to do with controlling the other person.
Your partner is going to do what they do. You can invite. You can ask. There’s a Byron Katie quote I love: You can ask anyone for anything at any time — and trust that they’ll say yes or no.
Shana James (28:18)
Okay.
Yes, I love that.
Rachael Sloan (28:40)
So boundaries are for you.
Some are physical — like not wanting your kids exposed to certain language or content. If that boundary is crossed, the boundary isn’t about changing the other person — it’s about removing yourself and your children from that situation.
Not to punish — but to care for yourself.
Shana James (29:15)
Mm-hmm.
Something you can control, not something you force your partner to do.
Rachael Sloan (29:23)
Exactly. You can ask — I’d really prefer you don’t swear around the kids. And if it continues, you choose not to participate.
The key is that boundaries aren’t about punishment or manipulation. They’re about love — for yourself, and sometimes for the other person too.
Shana James (29:41)
Yeah.
Rachael Sloan (29:53)
Most clients initially ask, What do I do when my ex yells at me? I need a boundary so she won’t yell.
But emotional boundaries are really about this question: When my partner is upset, am I taking that on? Am I telling myself this is my fault or my responsibility to fix?
Shana James (30:10)
Thank you.
Rachael Sloan (30:20)
You can tell when emotional boundaries aren’t clear. If your partner is upset and you’re getting really activated, you’re likely taking on what they’re feeling and making it mean something about you.
Practicing emotional boundaries involves a lot of nervous system regulation — learning to stay calm and grounded. But it also means looking at why your brain thinks this is about you, or why you feel responsible for fixing it.
Shana James (30:23)
Yes.
Rachael Sloan (30:50)
Often we can trace this back to childhood patterns. If you had a parent who wasn’t well regulated, managing their emotional state may actually have been important for your survival as a child.
But that’s no longer true as an adult. Even in the worst-case scenario — if your partner becomes terribly dysregulated or even leaves — you will be okay. As a child, that might not have been true.
Many of us carry those deeply ingrained habits forward. We feel like we have to fix or handle other people’s emotions, and that can make us feel very unsafe. Usually, that’s when things spiral.
Shana James (31:22)
Yes.
Rachael Sloan (31:46)
Because now we’re both dysregulated, and we really can’t help.
Shana James (31:49)
Right — now we’re both back in the same patterns and habits.
Rachael Sloan (31:53)
Yeah.
I actually spoke with a longtime client just before this conversation, and he said it beautifully. He told me, “I’m not quite there yet, but I can see where I want to be.”
He said, “I want to feel confident in who I am so that when someone I love is upset, I can be there for them and stay calm.”
Shana James (32:16)
Yeah.
Rachael Sloan (32:22)
And he said, “I want to be able to ask, How can I help? and Do I even want to help? — without feeling like I have to fix it or that it’s about me.”
Shana James (32:26)
So beautiful.
That’s brilliant. There’s so much in that. When I work with confidence with men, I often describe true confidence not as having it all together, but trusting yourself to bring clarity, honesty, and groundedness to a moment.
That ability to meet the moment with your sovereign self. And when I hear you say this, it feels similar — there’s no obligation, no “I have to do this,” which creates real freedom.
Rachael Sloan (33:04)
Mm-hmm.
Shana James (33:23)
Freedom to ask: How could I help? Do I want to help? What’s for the highest good here?
How can I be part of something that heals instead of creating more pain?
Rachael Sloan (33:35)
Yes. It’s so much softer from that place.
Before working with divorced men, I worked primarily with women whose partners struggled with depression, and emotional boundaries were a big part of that work. I had to face this in my own marriage too.
Shana James (33:49)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Rachael Sloan (34:04)
I had to see that if I’m not okay when my husband isn’t okay, I become manipulative. When I try to support him, I actually need him to be okay so I can be okay.
There’s no room for him to struggle. And sometimes people need to not be okay. In those moments, I’m not offering unconditional love.
Shana James (34:07)
Right — you need him to get back to a certain place so you can be okay.
Rachael Sloan (34:33)
Exactly. I can’t really assess what support would be helpful because I need something from him. He’s struggling, and underneath I’m saying, “I need you to be happy so I can be okay.”
That was really hard for me to admit. Seeing how selfish and manipulative that can be — without intending it — was humbling.
Shana James (34:46)
Yeah. It’s very humbling to see the ways we manipulate without realizing it.
And underneath that, there’s usually a positive intention. We want our partners to be happy. We want ourselves to be happy. We want everyone to be okay.
Rachael Sloan (35:03)
Exactly. The intention is beautiful.
But when it comes from that almost codependent need, it’s a bad strategy. That’s another big piece of my work—separating intention from strategy. The intention is almost always good.
Shana James (35:20)
Mm-hmm.
Rachael Sloan (35:37)
But many of the strategies we use are awful. And if we can learn new strategies that actually serve those intentions, that’s a powerful shift.
Shana James (35:47)
Yes. And even having an intention in the first place is powerful — like choosing to have a conversation because you want closeness, rather than because everything feels like it’s on fire.
Rachael Sloan (35:58)
Right.
“I’ve gotta get this out!”
Shana James (36:15)
Versus that more conscious place. And you’re adding this key distinction: we can have great intentions, but if the strategy doesn’t create connection, it’s something we can learn and change.
Rachael Sloan (36:33)
Yes. And catching those strategies is where so much of the work is.
When someone feels like everything has to come out right now, I often ask: Why? Usually the answer is, “I need them to hear me. I need them to understand me.”
And when you dig deeper, the underlying desire is connection — acceptance, reassurance, safety.
Shana James (37:05)
Yes.
Rachael Sloan (37:07)
So the question becomes: is the strategy actually getting you what you want?
Often it isn’t. But we keep using it because it’s familiar, and we may not know a better way. That’s where your work comes in — offering a different path.
Shana James (37:10)
Exactly.
This is so powerful. I can feel your wisdom, your groundedness, and your compassion. Thank you for bringing all of this.
Rachael Sloan (37:49)
It’s been such a gift working with these men. I’m not a man, and I’ve never been divorced, so I’ve had to really learn from them what healing looks like.
Shana James (38:09)
Mm-hmm.
Rachael Sloan (38:18)
They’ve let me ask questions and explore alongside them, and I’ve gained so much wisdom from that. My marriage is better than it ever would have been if I hadn’t done this work — because these men have taught me so much.
Shana James (38:21)
Yes. It’s such an honor.
Having coached men for over 20 years, I feel like we’ve both been behind the curtain — seeing their vulnerability, longings, and tenderness. It’s changed how I love and how I see what’s underneath the survival responses.
Rachael Sloan (39:10)
Yes. I know what’s under there.
I think someday it would be powerful to share more of that with women — what we’ve learned from being invited into these vulnerable spaces.
Shana James (39:36)
Yes. I’ve started doing that again because women really do need to hear this.
Rachael Sloan (39:48)
They really do. There are so many layers to this work.
Shana James (39:53)
Amazing. Yes.
Well, I know you have your program, Better Beyond Divorce. Do you want to say a little bit about that and where people can find you?
Rachael Sloan (39:59)
Yes — Better Beyond Divorce.
I imagine most people listening to this podcast are in the building-relationship stage. But for anyone who isn’t, “Better Beyond Divorce is a four-month, community-based program I run primarily for men going through separation or divorce, focused on healing after divorce, emotional regulation, and rebuilding life and relationships after divorce.”
I also work with some men who’ve already divorced and are now in new relationships — or even new marriages — but are finding that there’s still some baggage they haven’t fully healed.
Shana James (40:27)
Mm-hmm.
Rachael Sloan (40:33)
In those cases, the program can be really helpful too.
What I love most about it is that we do all this work you and I have been talking about — emotional regulation, identity, uncovering old patterns, forgiveness — but we do it in community.
The program is about five years old now, and there’s this incredible group of men — some who’ve been with me a long time, some who are brand new — and they’re all genuinely committed to deepening their understanding of themselves and exploring relationships differently together.
Shana James (40:59)
Yes. Yeah.
Rachael Sloan (41:02)
So I’d say anyone who’s had a divorce in their past and wants to do things differently going forward—and wants support around that — Better Beyond Divorce would be a great place.
Shana James (41:18)
Great, yeah.
There are definitely men in my community who’ve gone through divorce, and this would be an amazing program for them.
Rachael Sloan (41:31)
Yeah. There really is an opportunity in divorce — if you’re willing to take it. It’s hard.
Shana James (41:41)
One hundred percent.
I often say it was the best and worst thing that ever happened to me — and it became a profound moment of identity after divorce and emotional healing for men and women alike.”
Because we can get stuck in roles and identities in relationship — “This is who I am now because of how this relationship works.” And when that breaks apart, it’s painful. But it also gives you the chance to ask: Who do I want to be now? Who am I at my core? How do I want to express myself?
There’s nothing quite like that.
Rachael Sloan (42:29)
Yeah. A lot of my clients say it exactly that way — the best and worst thing that ever happened.
Some of them even say that, looking back, it may have had to happen for them to learn what they needed to learn. We do tend to keep each other comfortable in relationships, and sometimes we settle into patterns together.
That disruption can force us to ask deeper questions.
But like you said, we can do that work while we’re still in relationship — we just have to be curious and willing to look before we get toppled over.
Shana James (43:10)
Totally.
It’s about being willing to not fully know ourselves — to discover ourselves anew. If we wake up every day thinking, I know who I am and I know who my partner is, we get stuck in boxes. But we don’t have to live that way.
Rachael Sloan (43:13)
Yeah.
And what a gift that is to give your partner, too — to not expect them to be the same person they were 20 years ago when you got married. Hopefully they’re not. Hopefully they’re growing.
Shana James (43:36)
Yes — hopefully exactly, they’re not.
And for people currently in relationships: if you don’t feel like you can grow, or grow with your partner, that doesn’t mean you need a divorce. But it does invite the question — what would it be like to invite growth? To ask for more authenticity, more aliveness, for yourself and for them?
Rachael Sloan (44:06)
And if someone’s listening and they’ve been in a relationship a long time and want to do that—please do it with grace and patience.
Change shifts the pattern between you, and you have to give the other person room to move with you.
I’ve seen this in my own marriage as I’ve grown through my coaching work. I’ve learned so much and identified so many of my patterns.
Shana James (44:24)
Mm-hmm.
Rachael Sloan (44:36)
At first, my husband was pretty skeptical. He was like, “What is this coaching stuff? Does it work? What are you even doing?”
He needed time. But now, he’s really embracing his own self-discovery—his healing, and who he wants to be.
It’s not something you can ask of someone and expect them to say, “Yes! I’m ready. Let’s go.” You have to give them room to process, to meet you there, and to trust that it’s safe to grow.
Shana James (45:04)
Yeah.
Rachael Sloan (45:05)
Safe to change. Safe to grow.
Shana James (45:07)
Love it. Thank you so much.
Is there a webpage people can find your program on? We’ll put the link in the show notes.
Rachael Sloan (45:15)
Yeah — actually, the best place to direct people is my YouTube channel.
It’s youtube.com/@rachaelsloancoach—I’ll give you the link. I do have a website with information about the program, but the YouTube videos really give people a better feel for my work and offer practical tools.
There’s a lot there around emotional regulation, separation, and divorce for anyone who wants to explore further.
Shana James (45:46)
Awesome. Thank you so much for being here, for all the work you’re doing, and for all the love you’re bringing to men.
Rachael Sloan (45:55)
Thank you so much for having me, Shana. This was such a fun conversation.
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