In this episode, I’m joined by Ben and Kerena Saltzman — partners who don’t just talk about conscious relationship, but live it.
Find out how to have the best love and sex of your life!
How to Keep Love Alive: Real Practices for Conscious, Lasting Partnership: Show Notes
I just released a new Practicing Love episode that I feel genuinely moved by.
It’s a conversation with Ben and Kerena Saltzman — partners, parents, and leaders in the world of therapy, coaching and the Enneagram personality typing system. Kerena is a longtime therapist who works deeply with couples. Ben has spent decades supporting growth and leadership, and together they not only teach, but live in a conscious relationship.
What struck me most is that they say their relationship has actually gotten easier over time! They say it’s because they’ve learned how to love each other well.
I agree wholeheartedly that learning to love each other well is the foundation of keeping love alive, and we talk about how to do this!
They talk about their relationship in a way that is not idealized or spiritualized, or floating above real life. They share about the day-to-day moments, and admit having times when they do not want to open up or be intimate. They talk about the messy moments where it would be easier to shut down, get defensive, or pull away.
As we talked about things like taking responsibility for your part (instead of focusing on your partner’s), why we have to keep updating our view of our partner (instead of assuming we “know” them), and what it looks like when one person is triggered and the other holds the love and connection, we looked at…
What becomes possible when you learn to love each other well:
- You feel more understood, and on the same team, even in hard moments
- Intimacy and spark deepen and grow, instead of fading over time
- There’s more aliveness and room to be fully yourself
- Painful moments actually bring you closer and strengthen the relationship
Underneath it all they highlight a shared orientation: relationship as a container for growth. So, instead of asking, “Is this working?” they ask:
“How can we grow through this together?”
That shift changes so much. It allows couples to be more compassionate and collaborative.
If you’ve ever wondered whether your relationship could get better over time, or how to create this kind of relationship, this conversation will give you a real, grounded sense of what it takes.
Love deepens when two people are willing to keep telling the truth, take responsibility for their part, and come back to each other vulnerably and with their aliveness. Relationships can become more powerful than most of us were ever shown.
Links:
Connect with Shana
Best love and sex of your life quiz
Get a Free copy of Honest Sex: A Passionate Path to Deepen Connection and Keep Relationships Alive.
Whether you’re dating or in a relationship it shows you how to take the self-doubt, struggle and shame out of your love life.
💘 If you’re looking for love:
Take this quiz: Find Love With More Ease and Joy
🔥 If you’re dating or in a relationship and you want more connection or intimacy:
Take this quiz: What Keeps You From Having the Best Love and Sex of Your Life?
Each quiz only takes a few minutes, and give you a personalized report of how you can have more of the love and intimacy you want.
Connect with Kerena and Ben
Touched And Transformed Free Videos
Bio:
Kerena Saltzman, LCSW is a presenter, trainer, and Gestalt therapist. She designs and facilitates group experiences that create authenticity, vitality, and deeper connection for conferences, communities, and teams.
The quality of our relationships increases engagement, creates dynamic collaboration, and allows teams to function at high levels of performance. Kerena teaches relational skills by designing experiential activities that create empathy, encourage taking another’s perspective, and support participants in discovering their hidden relational patterns.
At the foundation of her work is the belief that our relationships reveal where we are being asked to grow, develop, and evolve. When we develop relational skills relationships are more dynamic, conflict becomes easier, and energy is freed up to be creative and impact the world. Kerena has presented at Wisdom 2.0 Business Conferences in New York and San Francisco, Emerging Women, The University California Santa Cruz, JFK University, and is a teacher at Esalen Institute.
She also founded 20s Creating Connection, an organization that provides in person and virtual counseling to twenty-somethings in overwhelming life transitions.
Kerena lives in Santa Cruz, Ca. and some of her best teachers in this work are her lively thirteen year old daughter, husband, and extended community where she is called to practice this work daily.
Ben Saltzman is an internationally known Enneagram expert, shadow dancer, leadership coach, spiritual maverick, and world class facilitator.
He has used the Enneagram with fortune 500 executives, politicians, superior court judges, non-profits, and multi-millionaire entrepreneurs who are greening the planet. Supporting them in deepening of self awareness, the shedding of old beliefs, and the embodiment of Power, Presence, Compassion, and Joy that renews them for high performance as leaders.
He has coached his clients to meet with, and create successful relationships with, some of the most powerful people on the planet including: Barak Obama, Bill Clinton, Elon Musk, Bill Gates, and Royalty in other countries.
He co-founded the Israeli Enneagram Center in Telaviv, Israel. He has also taught at John F. Kennedy University and the Institute of Transpersonal Psychology. He is the author of the online program Transform Your Type, and teaches coaches and therapists to use the Enneagram in his five day “Transformational Coaching with the Enneagram” program and his year long “Relational Mastery” program.
He uses his understanding of the Enneagram with his wife and teenage daughter regularly to bring more harmony, understanding, and love into their relationships.
Transcript:
Shana James (00:00)
Hello and welcome to this episode of Practicing Love: Have the Best Love and Sex of Your Life After 40.
I am so happy to be here today with Ben and Kerena Saltzman. They are two people I have known for a long time, and I admire and have such deep respect for both of you — professionally and personally.
Kerena is a Gestalt therapist, and Ben is a seminar leader. Together, they’ve co-founded the Salzman Approach, which we’ll talk about.
Ultimately, you’ve been together for a couple of decades now, and I’m so grateful that you’re here to give a window into how you practice love — having been through health scares, parenting, and now being in the sandwich generation and taking care of your parents.
Life is challenging. And what I see from the two of you is that you continue cultivating and deepening love.
So thank you for being here to inspire people.
Ben and Kerena Saltzman (00:59)
Thank you for bringing us on. We appreciate it.
Shana James (01:02)
Yeah.
Is there anything either of you want to say as we get started? It could be a story about what brought you together, or something you love about each other — anything that comes to mind or heart.
Ben and Kerena Saltzman (01:17)
One thing I was thinking about when you introduced us and said “20 years” is that I feel like it’s actually gotten easier over time.
Just through the practice of it.
We were sitting with a couple of close friends on Sunday — they’re getting ready to get married — and they were talking about trying to get all their work done, working on themselves, and making sure all the relationship stuff was figured out before getting married.
And we were like… you guys — it keeps coming with you.
You don’t resolve all the issues before you get married. You’re signing up for all the stuff that’s already there in front of you. It may or may not shift, right? I mean, the hope is you get a little better at doing it.
Shana James (01:44)
It’s not going to be over.
Ben and Kerena Saltzman (01:44)
Yeah.
Shana James (01:46)
Which it sounds like you have — which is amazing, right?
Because a lot of people talk about it getting harder over time.
Ben and Kerena Saltzman (02:05)
Well, when we’re at our worst, it doesn’t look good.
But I feel like we’re committed enough to get out of it and say, “Alright, let’s keep going on this road of loving each other well.”
To me, it feels like a commitment to using the skills, to living in alignment with principles, and to not just letting emotional reactivity take over.
Not going to go pout in the corner because you hurt my feelings, or decimate you because I’m angry.
It’s a commitment to operating at a higher level instead of letting base instincts run the show.
And that gets easier over time.
For me — and I don’t know if this is true for you — each time we work through something tough, where there’s anger and tension, and then we come out the other side closer together, it makes it that much easier to do it again.
The first time is the hardest, and then you build from there.
Shana James (03:06)
Do you have a set of principles you live by?
I know you both teach — there’s therapy, the Enneagram, circling, Authentic Relating…
Are there specific principles you live by in your relationship?
Ben and Kerena Saltzman (03:20)
Yeah, a lot of what you just named.
We’ve woven together principles from those fields and created something like:
Whoever has more consciousness in the moment — whoever is less triggered — is responsible for getting the other person’s world.
They’re the one listening, holding space, staying grounded while the other person is spinning out.
Are we allowed to swear on this podcast?
Shana James (03:42)
Yes, you can swear.
Ben and Kerena Saltzman (03:49)
Great.
So when the other person is all messed up, whoever has more consciousness is the adult in the room.
They help the other person feel heard, which helps their nervous system relax and come back to presence.
Shana James (04:02)
Yeah, that’s such a generous and team-oriented way to be together.
It’s not like, “Now you’re triggered, so I’m going to get triggered too.”
Ben and Kerena Saltzman (04:11)
Right.
One thing we’ve been noticing recently is how powerful it is to say:
“Hey, there’s something happening in the we that doesn’t feel good,”
instead of, “You did this,” or “I did that.”
It becomes: what’s happening in us that feels tight or off?
That shift makes it feel like we’re teaming up instead of opposing each other.
Shana James (04:35)
The we — yes.
Ben and Kerena Saltzman (04:37)
Yeah.
Because it’s so easy to blame the other person:
“Well, if you just acted differently…”
But when we say, “We both probably have a part in this,”
then we can each look at our side and how we’re coming together.
The Enneagram helps too. I’m a type 7, she’s a type 8. We each have different triggers.
Understanding that helps release some of the tension.
Shana James (05:06)
Right.
Even for people who don’t know the Enneagram, just being willing to see from the other person’s perspective — to understand what’s creating their reaction — that’s incredibly loving.
Ben and Kerena Saltzman (05:37)
Yeah.
We’ve been calling it “perspective jumping” —
putting your own perspective aside and stepping into how the other person is experiencing things.
Then reflecting it back so they feel understood.
But that’s a master-level move — especially when things are heated.
It’s really hard not to get entrenched in your own view.
Shana James (06:19)
Yes. That’s what you’re practicing for.
In the heat of the moment, it’s hardest — but that’s exactly what the practice is for, so you have more choice in that moment.
Ben and Kerena Saltzman (06:25)
Exactly. Practice, practice, practice.
Another big thing is that every week, we have a couple of hours that are just for us.
We’re committed to that time together.
Shana James (06:37)
Just you two.
Ben and Kerena Saltzman (06:42)
Yes.
It helps us come back into presence and enjoy each other.
Sometimes we just lie in front of the fire. Sometimes we eat, talk, or make love.
But the focus is slowing down and deepening.
Shana James (07:03)
So it’s not about a specific format — it’s about slowing down and going deeper, not staying at the surface.
Ben and Kerena Saltzman (07:06)
Exactly.
And sometimes I’ll even notice resistance — like, “I don’t even want to be here right now.”
I’ll say it out loud: “I’m feeling itchy about being here.”
It’s often my own discomfort with intimacy.
Shana James (07:18)
Yeah.
Ben and Kerena Saltzman (07:35)
But being honest about that helps us move through it instead of withholding it.
Shana James (07:42)
Can we talk more about that?
Because that’s so bold and beautiful — to be able to say, “I don’t want to be here right now.”
Ben and Kerena Saltzman (07:54)
Yeah.
Or, “I don’t want to be intimate right now.”
“I feel prickly.”
That’s often more accurate.
Shana James (08:01)
Right — just noticing that feeling.
What makes it safe between you to say those things?
Ben and Kerena Saltzman (08:18)
We don’t over-personalize it.
If one of us took it really personally and shut down, it wouldn’t feel safe to say.
But we understand that we’re speaking in service of the relationship —
to get closer, not further apart.
We have agreements to be authentic, raw, and real — even when it’s uncomfortable.
Because if we move through it, there’s more connection on the other side.
Shana James (08:39)
Yes.
Ben and Kerena Saltzman (08:45)
And sometimes there’s just natural prickliness —
like when we’ve been apart and come back together.
But we understand it’s part of the pattern.
And within minutes, it shifts back into warmth.
Shana James (09:40)
Right — so it passes.
Ben and Kerena Saltzman (09:41)
Exactly.
And we don’t hide it — we “out” it.
Shana James (09:54)
Yes — I love that.
Because most people hide those feelings, thinking they’re not acceptable.
But you’ve created a container where honesty actually creates more connection.
Ben and Kerena Saltzman (10:25)
Exactly.
Otherwise, we just shut down and create more and more distance over time.
But if we speak what’s real — even “I don’t want to be around you right now” —
and stay present with it,
we move through it instead of separating.
We choose authenticity over being “nice.”
Shana James (11:00)
Yes — or just shoving it under the rug.
And I want to go back to that moment where you can stay with Kerena’s prickliness. Because I hear so many men, when I’m working with them, say that when that happens, they either shut down or feel unwanted. And it’s so painful.
So there’s something in how you’re orienting that allows her to go through that and come out the other side —whereas resistance would just entrench it.
Ben and Kerena Saltzman (11:06)
Yeah.
Shana James (11:33)
Right — so she can move through it, instead of it getting stuck.
Ben and Kerena Saltzman (11:36)
Yep. Yes, exactly.
Wow — how do we do that?
Part of it is the skills. We’ve been really trained — because we train a lot of people — in things like perspective jumping and getting the other person’s world.
So if I’m feeling angry or like I want to pull back, I don’t indulge that impulse. Instead, I lean in. I try to understand what’s going on for her.
I try not to take it personally. Knowing her Enneagram type helps — it depersonalizes it a bit.
So it’s almost like aikido — there’s energy there, maybe anger, but it’s not about me. It’s about what’s happening for her.
And I think type sevens, too, have a tendency not to personalize things as much. There’s a way of letting things not go straight to the heart —
and even putting a little bit of a positive spin on it.
Shana James (12:40)
Nice work.
And for someone who does take things personally, I would say that’s an opportunity for growth — to find a deeper sense of inner stability, so you’re not relying on external validation.
Not that anyone should stay in a relationship where someone is constantly prickly — but allowing each other to move through these waves, especially as women age and go through perimenopause and hormonal shifts…
If one partner can hold some steadiness, then the other can move through it and come back.
Ben and Kerena Saltzman (13:25)
Yeah, exactly.
Because if you do the reverse — if he pulls away every time I express something — then my instinct becomes not to express it at all.
And then I’d take it somewhere else. I’d go to my girlfriends and say, “This is driving me crazy.”
I’d feel closer to them than I would here.
Shana James (13:36)
Right — to them.
Ben and Kerena Saltzman (13:52)
Exactly.
If I can’t be prickly with you, it has to go somewhere.
And then I lose intimacy here — the connection, the closeness, the love, the sex, all of it.
Instead of bringing it into the relationship, it gets displaced.
We also both have support systems — Ben has a men’s group, I have a women’s group, and we both have therapists.
So when something is too much, or not appropriate to process with each other, we can take it outside the relationship.
That way, I don’t feel like I have to hold everything for him — and vice versa.
Shana James (14:56)
Yeah.
Shana James (15:00)
And what I know about your groups — tell me if I’m wrong — is that they’re not spaces where you go and just complain about your partner.
They’re spaces where you explore your own psyche and growth — like, how do I love better? How do I show up more fully?
Ben and Kerena Saltzman (15:18)
Yeah, exactly.
And this connects back to your earlier question about not getting triggered by prickliness.
Being in those group containers is huge.
You know circling, right? In that practice, you’re constantly training to get someone else’s world.
There’s a group of people, and you’re learning:
How do I understand this person deeply?
How do I express what’s happening in me in a way they can actually receive?
And how do I help them see how they’re impacting the relational field?
When you’ve done hours and hours of that kind of practice, it becomes part of who you are.
Shana James (16:01)
Yes.
Shana James (16:10)
It’s so interesting hearing that.
Because when I was doing circling and now thinking about dating, I realize I used to approach dates that way — like, who are you? I want to understand you.
And so many people go into dating thinking, “Are you the one? Do you fit what I want?”
Instead of being curious about the other person.
Ben and Kerena Saltzman (16:29)
Yeah.
Shana James (16:39)
From dating all the way into long-term relationships, that orientation of getting someone’s world is so powerful.
It’s like, “I really want to understand you fully.”
And it reminds me of one of my favorite books, Undefended Love.
We’re so used to defending ourselves —
“If you’re prickly, then I have to defend myself…”
Instead of staying open.
Ben and Kerena Saltzman (17:20)
Yeah.
It’s really an intention:
“I’m going to get to know you in deeper and deeper ways.”
And when you live in that mindset, it just becomes part of you.
So whether you’re with your partner or on a date, you’re not running a checklist —
“Oh, they make this much money… they’re good with their mom…”
You’re actually asking:
Who is this person?
What do they care about?
What matters to them?
You’re exploring at a deeper level.
Shana James (17:51)
Yes.
Ben and Kerena Saltzman (17:51)
Exactly.
It becomes a richer experience of connection.
Shana James (18:00)
Agreed.
Most people come from a more self-focused place — like, how do I get my needs met?
And again, I’m not judging that, but it’s very different from what you’re describing.
You’re talking about the we, the shared commitment to both authenticity and connection.
Ben and Kerena Saltzman (18:30)
Right.
And especially in long-term relationships, it’s easy to fall into, “I know you.”
But we try not to root in that too much.
Sometimes I’ll even say, “I feel like I’m just getting to know you” — even after 20 years.
That perspective keeps me open and curious.
Shana James (19:10)
And it keeps possibility alive.
Because when we put someone in a box, it’s like, “They’re never going to change.”
And with that mindset… they won’t.
Ben and Kerena Saltzman (19:12)
Exactly.
Or we can say, “They’re changing all the time in ways I don’t even see.”
Because we all are.
Another way we look at it is that the relationship itself is a container for growth and development.
So if something keeps triggering me, that’s something in my world that wants attention.
Shana James (19:27)
Yes — I love that.
Ben and Kerena Saltzman (19:51)
If I’m feeling trapped, or controlled, or frustrated —
that’s something I need to work with.
That’s where the transformation is.
Shana James (20:10)
That shift — from “Why is this happening to me?” to “This is part of my growth” — is huge.
Ben and Kerena Saltzman (20:24)
Huge.
And I see this a lot in therapy.
People come in when things are really bad —
instead of seeing the relationship as a place to grow before it gets there.
If both people take responsibility for their side, that’s where real change happens.
Shana James (20:46)
Yes.
Ben and Kerena Saltzman (20:57)
It really humbles the whole system.
It creates more space. It creates more evenness in the relational field, and more goodwill somehow. There’s a vibrancy — an aliveness — that comes with it.
You see so many relationships these days where people have been together 20 or 30 years, and there’s kind of a deadening of the relationship.
And for me, it’s like — I want this relationship to feel sparky and alive and vibrant.
Like, what are we going to do now? What’s going to happen?
We can say anything.
Shana James (21:33)
I also hear that vibrancy, that aliveness — and it reminds me of Mating in Captivity.
That idea that we often sacrifice excitement for safety as a relationship goes on.
But what I’m hearing you say is that you’re not sacrificing excitement. You’re continuing to build it and discover it.
It’s like — you don’t actually know each other, even after all this time.
And when you stay in that curiosity and commitment to aliveness, you get to have both — the excitement and the safety.
Ben and Kerena Saltzman (22:02)
Yeah.
And it’s almost like leaning into the idea that I don’t fully know you.
There’s a story that I think I know you — but it’s actually dangerous to be this vulnerable in a long-term relationship.
Because the truth is — you could leave. Or I could leave. Or something could happen.
So when we’re really honest, it’s not completely safe and comfortable.
And I actually like holding that perspective.
Even something like remembering impermanence — that you could die — it keeps me awake. It keeps me appreciating you, instead of taking you for granted.
So yes, it does feel a little edgy sometimes.
And when we’re in that growth container, it feels like there are versions — 1.0, 2.0, 3.0…
And right now, I feel like I’m meeting version 4.0 of Kerena.
In the last six months, there’s been a lot shifting for her — questions about her path, new opportunities opening up, new directions.
And I’m like, “Who is she becoming now? I can’t wait.”
I love who she is, but I don’t know what the next version will be.
And there’s so much aliveness in that.
Shana James (23:27)
That’s really beautiful.
Because some people feel threatened when their partner grows or changes — like, “Are they still going to want me?”
But what I’m hearing is a kind of inner security in both of you.
Yes, anything could happen — but because you’re so committed to discovering each other and supporting each other, you’re actually more likely to stay connected.
Ben and Kerena Saltzman (24:13)
Yeah. I think that’s right.
It increases the vitality of the relationship.
Shana James (24:22)
Ben, when Kerena said that vulnerability can feel dangerous, you said you don’t really experience it that way.
Can you say more about that?
Ben and Kerena Saltzman (24:35)
Yeah.
I mean, I’m an Enneagram type 7 — so I tend to see things through rose-colored glasses.
But I also have a really strong belief in love, in the container of the relationship, and in the skills and principles we’ve built together.
I feel like it would take something really serious to break us.
And even then, there would be a lot of conversation before it got to that point.
So it doesn’t feel dangerous to me.
It would feel dangerous if we went off the rails and stopped doing what we’ve been doing for the past 15 years.
But otherwise, it actually feels more likely that one of us would die than that we’d break up.
That’s honestly how it feels to me.
Shana James (25:17)
Yeah.
Ben and Kerena Saltzman (25:50)
And I think part of that is attachment, too.
You have a more secure attachment — two parents who stayed together.
I come from a different background — single parent, things were less stable — so there’s a little more anxious attachment in me.
Just different wiring.
Shana James (26:09)
I love you naming that.
Because even with all the therapy, personal work, and spiritual work, those patterns can still be there.
But you’re aware of them, instead of unconsciously acting from them.
Ben and Kerena Saltzman (26:23)
Exactly.
And working with couples has also given me a lot of compassion — seeing how people end up in painful places in love without even realizing how it happened.
It’s often a slow wearing down — distancing, stonewalling…
Love just erodes over time.
Shana James (26:55)
Yeah.
Ben and Kerena Saltzman (26:55)
So we’re really committed to not letting that happen.
We actively double down on what keeps us feeling connected and loved.
And when hard things happen —
My mom passed last year,
I had heart surgery three years ago,
Kerena had breast cancer ten years ago —
We’ve gone through real challenges.
But we did them well.
We came out closer, more connected, more committed to love.
Shana James (27:38)
Yeah… what helped you do that well?
Ben and Kerena Saltzman (27:41)
For me, with the cancer, there was this moment where I realized:
“This is my path.”
Someone — my osteopath — said that to me.
And I remember thinking, If you hadn’t just gone through this yourself, I might want to hit you.
But I trusted her.
And something shifted.
I started asking:
How interesting can I make this?
How much support can I allow?
Which was huge for me, because I’m not someone who easily receives support.
Shana James (28:06)
Yeah.
Ben and Kerena Saltzman (28:32)
And we were supported in a massive way.
We had built a strong community, and they showed up —
Meals, care, presence…
My men’s group came over before her surgery.
It was incredibly moving.
Shana James (28:56)
Yeah.
Ben and Kerena Saltzman (29:00)
There was this feeling of being held by a larger field of love.
And even little things —
like the surgeon saying she sings before surgery, and then texting, “I have backup singers.”
It was just… beautiful. Unexpected.
Shana James (29:26)
That’s so beautiful.
Ben and Kerena Saltzman (29:49)
They sang “Everything’s Gonna Be Alright” by Bob Marley.
So there was this way of meeting even tragedy with openness —
like, maybe there’s something meaningful here.
Maybe there’s even something good.
Shana James (30:14)
Yeah.
Ben and Kerena Saltzman (30:14)
And then going through my heart surgery —
that was intense. ICU, real uncertainty.
And coming out of that, I realized:
I’ve been holding back my love.
That was a huge wake-up call.
Shana James (30:32)
Yes.
Ben and Kerena Saltzman (30:35)
I realized I had been holding it back.
And now I’m like — I can’t do that anymore. I’m just going to give it. I’m going to lay it on.
But I wasn’t aware of it until something happened to him.
Shana James (30:47)
For people who are wondering, am I holding back my love?
What did you feel, or how did you notice that you were holding back?
Ben and Kerena Saltzman (30:52)
It was that something happened that could have taken him away.
And suddenly I felt like — oh, I have so much more to give.
And I haven’t fully let myself be vulnerable.
Seventeen years in, and I still wasn’t fully open at that level.
And I think every time you go to a new level of love, it’s a new level of risk and vulnerability.
It’s like — can I allow this level of love to consume me?
There’s always the possibility of heartbreak, of loss.
And yes, it’s mutual — but it’s also a bit of a solo journey.
I’m letting go of an identity I had before —
like being a little too cool to love that deeply.
And there was also this moment of, I don’t know if he’ll be able to meet me there.
Shana James (31:59)
Right.
Ben and Kerena Saltzman (32:09)
And he said, “I don’t know either… but don’t hold it back.”
We’ll see.
But I don’t want you to limit your love because you’re not sure I can meet it.
Shana James (32:15)
That’s so beautiful.
And one of the things I hear in that is that vulnerability is actually a way of giving to your partner.
It’s not just receiving or exposing yourself — it’s a form of generosity.
Ben and Kerena Saltzman (32:32)
Yeah.
It’s like a gift. A tender, vulnerable gift.
Shana James (32:53)
And I keep coming back to something I’ve explored over the years —
that there’s a part of the heart that never actually breaks.
There are parts that feel hurt, bitter, wounded…
but underneath that, there’s an unbreakable heart.
And for me, love feels like the practice of resting in that deeper place.
Ben and Kerena Saltzman (33:18)
Yeah… that feels right.
There’s something in us that can always love and will be okay — no matter what happens externally.
Even if everything falls apart.
Sometimes I’m amazed by people who’ve lost the great love of their life, and yet they’re still so alive, still so willing to engage with life.
There’s someone in our community like that —
she went through a profound loss, and she’s still vibrant, still open, still in life.
And I think that’s what you’re pointing to — that deeper heart that isn’t dependent on circumstances.
Shana James (34:28)
I feel like we just got a masterclass.
It reminds me of those little interviews at the end of When Harry Met Sally — but this is the deeper, real version.
Getting to sit with you and ask:
How do you actually make love work?
How do you love each other more over time?
How do you keep navigating your own stuff?
It’s so rare and so precious. Thank you for sharing this.
Ben and Kerena Saltzman (34:57)
Yeah.
And I think part of it is that we’re committed to this — to the relationship.
And also, we have a child.
We want her to grow up in an environment of love, of goodness.
So I’ve always been aware — when couples sit across from each other, arms folded, disconnected —
their children are the ones who feel that.
It’s not even the fighting that’s the issue.
It’s whether we can resolve and come back to love.
So we’re always aware of her in our “we.”
Even when we argue, she notices.
And we make sure we come back together.
Shana James (35:59)
Yeah.
We’re always going to have disagreements or struggles.
But the repair — the coming back — that’s what matters.
Ben and Kerena Saltzman (36:18)
When I hear a couple say, “We never argue,” I get curious —
how much aliveness is there?
Because mummies don’t fight either — they just sit there.
We’re intense. We argue. Sometimes we swear.
But we have rules — we don’t cross certain lines, we don’t attack each other’s character.
Still, there’s anger, intensity — it’s real.
And our child gets to see that — and also see us repair, reconnect, and love.
That modeling matters.
Shana James (37:03)
I love that you have rules for how you fight.
Ben and Kerena Saltzman (37:05)
Yeah.
There are boundaries.
And because of that, our daughter sees that she can stand up for herself too.
She’s not afraid of intensity.
Shana James (37:40)
That’s beautiful.
Ben and Kerena Saltzman (37:55)
She was talking with a friend recently about their parents.
Her friend said, “My parents don’t really fight — they just sweep things under the rug.”
And my daughter said, “My parents fight — and my mom’s a therapist.”
We all laughed.
Everyone’s different.
Ben and Kerena Saltzman (38:23)
And another thing —
people are often surprised at how many couples are in long-term relationships without sex.
And I think — okay, that’s their choice.
Two adults choosing what works for them.
It’s not wrong.
We’re all choosing.
For us, we’re choosing vibrancy.
That’s the package we’re opting into.
Shana James (39:03)
Yeah.
Shana James (39:03)
Thank you, thank you, thank you for all of this.
Do you want to share a bit about the Salzman Approach and how people can find you?
Ben and Kerena Saltzman (39:19)
Yes. You can go to the saltzman approach.com.
We start with a free webinar where we introduce these skills and practices for personal transformation.
We use tools like the Enneagram, circling, and shadow work.
From there, there’s a 12-week online course where you’ll learn and practice these skills in small groups. And for those who want to go deeper, there’s a year-long program and facilitator training.
It’s really about giving people practical ways to deepen their relationships.
Shana James (40:07)
I love it.
And I trust you both wholeheartedly. We’ll put all the links in the show notes.
Thank you for being here and sharing this wisdom—it’s clearly something you’ve lived and built over decades.
Ben and Kerena Saltzman (40:34)
Thank you.
Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!):
https://uppbeat.io/t/prigida/burble
License code: ELRUV6G8JHUP8JAW
Podcast (practicing-love): Play in new window | Download | Embed
Subscribe: RSS