Love can feel complicated. When I meet someone who sees the simplicity of love, and really knows how to love someone, I am quick to strike up a conversation to learn more. Whether you want to know what is true love in a relationship, or to bring more love to your entire life, Shaun helps you see how to get there.
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How to Love Someone: Show Notes
Love can feel and be complicated. So, when I find someone who thinks of love as simple — who sees clearly what it takes to love, I am always up for a conversation.
Shaun Emerson is today’s guest on Practicing Love. He is the president of the board of MenLiving, a Chicago nonprofit that helps men forge friendships to combat the epidemic of loneliness and mental health struggles among men. I may have grilled him ;), or asked him a lot of questions, to help get a sense of how to use his simple perspectives of love in our real lives.
I know being human isn’t easy, and coming together in love with another human can be even more challenging, but there are perspective shifts that can help us relate to love with clearer eyes and a more open heart. Shaun is one of those people who can help us shift from fear to love.
In this episode Shaun and I talk about love, big and small scale. We discuss…
- What we think love is, and what makes it easier to sustain it
- Tracking whether you’re in a “love conversation” or a “fear conversation”
- How to share about what we’re afraid of, rather than lashing out in fear
- Asking yourself the question: “Am I committed to being right, or to being in a relationship?”
- Clearing up the elephant in the room, or the pea under the mattress, when something blocks connection
- The power of a mindful / meditative approach to love, and the capacities to reframe and recommit when we stray
- The potential when you show up with respect, care and kindness, in every interaction
Shaun’s take on love is profound in his simplicity. Starting to practice taking on what Shaun calls the position of love, can change your life. For another dose of Shaun, check out our Man Alive episode on 5 keys to living fully.
I always love to hear your takeaways, so feel free to comment.
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Bio:
For over twenty-five years, Shaun worked in the technology space, both as employee and as entrepreneur. He managed personnel and processes in sales, marketing, and operations. He started and led businesses in both the for-profit and the nonprofit sectors.
Today, Shaun dedicates his time to nonprofit initiatives. He has served in board leadership and other volunteer roles in several organizations. He currently serves as MenLiving’s Development Lead, focusing on programming and funding.
In 2012, Shaun discovered the transformational practice of yoga. Moved by the philosophy and power of the practice, he trained to guide others. He has lead yoga and meditation classes since.
Shaun grew up in New England and graduated with a BA in Sociology from the College of the Holy Cross. He has lived in the Chicago area since 1986. He is a father of three and has been married to his wife, Lisa, since 1993. Shaun and Lisa split their time between Glen Ellyn, Illinois, and Palm Springs, California.
Transcript
Shana James (00:01)
Hello and welcome to this episode of Practicing Love – Have the Best Love and Sex of Your Life After 40. I am thrilled to be here today to talk in maybe a little broader terms about love in general, and what is it to love, and how to love someone, and what keeps us from loving, or how we move through the blocks to love and have more of it.
Shaun Emerson, thank you so much for being here today and being willing to have this conversation.
Shaun (00:34)
Yeah, good to be with you, as always.
Shana James (00:37)
Thank you. Shaun is the developmental lead for Men Living, which has a vision of healthy, intentional, connected men. You lead groups and you’ve been, is it six years that men have been gathering in these groups? Wow.
Shaun (00:55)
Yeah, we’re into our sixth year. So we have about 450 virtual meetings a year and 50 plus in-person meetings. We’re bringing hundreds of guys together on an annual basis.
Shana James (01:02)
I imagine that one of the things that you are imparting is how to love, and what love is. Is that a conversation you have?
Shaun (01:18)
Yeah, we talk about bringing together an army of strong men with love in their hearts, to go forward and change the world. So not only do we come together in these spaces, but once we’re in here making things better for ourselves, let’s go outside and help others.
Shana James (01:40)
I love that. Can you say that again?
Shaun (01:47)
Bringing together an army of strong men with love in their hearts, to go change the world.
Shana James (01:49)
Beautiful. I like bringing army and men and love and love in their hearts together.
Shaun (01:56)
Well, some people object to the army thing. They say, change the army thing. But I think it doesn’t always have to necessarily have a negative connotation. I think it’s about if we want to create change, and a lot of society conditionally creates a structure, if we want to create change, we might have to be a little bit more aggressive about it. But we want to do it in a loving way.
Shana James (02:20)
At least assertive, maybe even aggressive, right? Let’s be aggressively loving. Ha ha!
So, okay, to me you seem like a special being, where love for you has been something, it sounds like, that’s always made sense to you – something you’ve always wanted to do, tried to make a foundation of your life. Is that true?
Shaun (02:45)
Yeah, I think so. I mean, we can get to the definition of what that is, and everybody might have a different perspective on what love is, but yeah, I would say it’s central for sure.
Shana James (02:59)
Okay, and what’s your perspective or definition? What is it for you?
Shaun (03:02)
It always feels like it’s goodness, respect, goodwill, kindness, that that’s at the heart of it. I also think there’s a non-attachment aspect to it too, that I think is really important. And then you can create a baseline of that in relationships.
And certainly as you get to a particular relationship, in more intense relationships, the baseline is love.
Shana James (03:40)
But how do you create that baseline?
That’s a big one, because I think about how I was raised, and the examples I saw around me. There was not always kindness or respect, or any kind of that foundation, nor did any of those people talk about non-attachment. That was not something I was raised around. Were you raised in a spiritual community?
Shaun (03:47)
No, I picked that up along the way. But as I think about it, there’s this specialness to it. I was thinking today, about all the shows or movies, rom-coms or whatever, and the L word.
Do you say it? Do you not say it?
What if that was just normalized? And so it’s not so much about saying it or not, as love being a basis for engagement.
And that’s how you feel about everyone you meet and then you get into a relationship. Okay, what’s this relationship gonna be like?
Shana James (04:38)
If that was the foundation, I can see many reasons why people would say–That’s ridiculous.
And I am like you, I am a believer in love and that’s my mission, is to be as much love as I can in the world. That’s all I really want to do. So, how do you practice?
Shaun (04:52)
Okay, wait, so I have to ask you then, okay, if that is your mission, what does love mean to you then? What is making that happen? Is it different than my definition?
Shana James (05:09)
No, I think it’s very similar. I think it’s kindness, generosity, warmth, care, curiosity, humility – not thinking I know the right way, and my way is right and your way is wrong. And I like the non-attachment piece too, because there’s something for me around…
I’ve been divorced and my ex and I are still co-parenting our kid, and we’re trying to do it with as much love as we can for each other. And we are now friends and we’ve been able to respect each other enough that we’re not demonizing each other or blaming or shaming each other.
We’re looking at it from a perspective of, we weren’t a fit for that kind of relationship, but that doesn’t mean we have to throw it all out, or be rude, be obnoxious.
We can actually bring love.
Shaun (06:09)
Yeah, because relationships are complicated, right? So you start with love as a basis or respect and kindness, goodwill, and then you say: how intense is a particular relationship going to be and what’s involved in that, right?
Shana James (06:13)
Yes, okay, so the question I have for you then is you’re saying you start with that. Would you say you start with Love whether you feel it or not? is it based on a feeling? Is it based on an action?
Shaun (06:32)
Mm-hmm. So, you talked about practicing it, if you will. One of the ways I’ve gotten into a good mindset around how to love someone is meditation.
It’s just being able to sit and say, okay, what’s important, what isn’t important, but also looking at another human beings, particularly with Men Living over the last six years, being in constant contact with other human beings, realizing this is the best thing – to be alive is to be engaged with another human being, despite that it can be ugly and tough.
And what if everybody I meet, I’m meeting them with some perspective of respect and kindness and goodwill, and see what emerges from that.
Shana James (07:36)
Do you have a trust that something good would emerge?
Shaun (07:41)
I’m going in optimistic, if you will. Rather than thinking about every situation as I’ve got to be leery of what they might be looking for, I’m going to go in and say, okay, this is another human being.
Shana James (07:46)
It’s interesting. I was talking recently about the danger that sometimes men feel out in the world, especially these days. And yes, women feel danger. People of other genders feel danger in many ways too. But the particular danger of – I could harm someone or I could be seen as attempting to harm someone even if I’m not harming someone – that could create a whole big thing.
So as we’re talking about that kind of optimism, I’m noticing that there are men in my life or men who I’ve met who are afraid to be optimistic because they don’t want to let their guard down in a certain way because that could ruin their careers, ruin their lives.
Like if you, as a man were to say something kind to a woman, let’s say in the workplace, could that be misconstrued?
Or how do we bring love to that situation? And if we always meet a situation with love that doesn’t mean everything’s going to turn out rainbows and butterflies, or be easy.
Shaun (09:29)
No, for sure. But I would rather start with that! Because what’s the option? I mean, we may have talked about this before, there are two conversations — one’s a love conversation, one’s a fear conversation.
And if I’m gonna live my life in fear that I can’t love you because that could be sexual harassment…
Shana James (10:05)
You’re not willing to live in that kind of fear world, it sounds like.
Shaun (10:12)
And I would love to have some impact on changing the world we’re living in. How do we correct it?
Shana James (10:20)
Yeah, there are so many things to think about here. One of the things I’ve worked with couples on, and had in my own relationships, is that question of “are we in fear, are we in love?” And can we be willing to risk letting this relationship go? Can we not be attached to this so that we can find the true form?
Or we can each show up as ourselves, knowing hopefully we’re going to stay together, but maybe we won’t.
Shaun (10:53)
But that’s a thing, right? I mean, that’s a potential outcome.
So can you just know that that’s a potential outcome?
And as difficult as it might be, that’s an outcome.
Shana James (10:59)
So do you do that in your romantic relationship?
Shaun (11:11)
I try to.
Shana James (11:18)
Do you have any moments or stories of how you do that?
Shaun (11:24)
Well, I’m not always great at it, despite trying to have this baseline or foundation. Sometimes the baseline gets out of whack.
I want to call it simple. I think sometimes talking about things like you do in your book – self-awareness and communication and trying to regulate yourself as much as you can – those engagements are really important.
It seems so basic, but again, coming with a foundation of love, and then having a mindset and a level of compassion and empathy for the other person to think, what are they really going through?
Because I’m not a mind reader, but I can still be open to what’s happening there.
Shana James (12:17)
That’s huge.
Shaun (12:24)
And then not making it all about me. So I think those are things that are really important to always be thinking about.
Shana James (12:31)
It sounds very loving to me in the way you’re describing that – that you’re coming together with your partner, and you may not agree, but you don’t have to be disrespectful, or you may not understand, but you could still be empathetic.
Shaun (12:53)
One thing about being in relationship is about being right vs being connected. I mean, which one’s most important to you?
Shana James (13:07)
Would you say that’s part of your practice of loving, is letting go of the need to be right?
Shaun (13:13)
Yeah, big time. Big time. I have to catch myself sometimes. And I’m not even close to always good at it.
Shana James (13:24)
What do you do when you catch yourself?
Shaun (13:29)
I either try to reframe what I’m saying, or apologize or backtrack, and try to be clear in how I communicate what I’m trying to say.
Shana James (13:42)
So you don’t just leave it. You don’t just drop it and say, well, hopefully that’ll pass. You actually come back around and you address it and communicate about it.
Shaun (13:54)
Yes, because I think if there’s something in between us, then that relationship is going to suffer. For me, one of the worst things that drives me crazy — is when there’s something in between me and another person that’s impacting our ability to connect.
Shana James (14:25)
Yeah, and let’s see if I’m getting this right — to me when I think of something in between, there’s something unsaid, or there’s something one of us did that disappointed the other or hurt each other’s feelings or we’re feeling angry about, and it’s just kind of sitting there like the elephant in the room. Or maybe not even like an elephant, but like a thin film or something, where we’re not as connected anymore. We’re not as loving toward each other anymore.
Shaun (14:51)
Yeah, and it doesn’t have to be huge, right? I mean, it can even be a little thing, but it’s still there. It’s the pea underneath the mattress. But it can be big too, which can make it harder sometimes.
Shana James (15:07)
Okay, I want to check in and see, are we going in the direction you thought we were going to go…
Shaun (15:12)
It’s your show, ha ha…
Shana James (15:21)
Well, I’m curious if there are things about the practice of love, or loving humanity, that you want to talk about.
Shaun (15:34)
Yeah, what impacts my ability not to feel love for everyone I meet? Or maybe some good toward them?
Shana James (16:05)
When we get a little more specific for people – you want people to think about whether they be more loving?
Shaun (16:13)
Yeah, to think about the fact that even though you might not know someone, even in the smallest interaction, you can look at it in a loving way. And the sense that we’re human beings and so then maybe experience something from that that is pretty cool, even in those littlest engagements. But it goes down to what is the definition of loving?
Shana James (16:45)
Okay, even before we get to the definition, when I think about what you just said – if I walk into the grocery store, or if I’m driving a car and somebody cuts me off or any situation, I could look at another person through the eyes of love and recognizing we’re both human. We probably are both struggling, maybe in similar ways, maybe in very different ways. But I can look through the eyes of compassion and love and care Or I could look through the eyes of: you’re fucking in my way. You’re annoying me. You’re not serving my needs.
Shaun (17:16)
Yes. This is goofy, but I walk a lot outside and every person I walk by I say either good morning or good afternoon or hello, just as a practice of the smallest engagement. And it’s funny how many times I get nothing back.
And you know, people could have their AirPods in, they could be thinking about something or whatever, but it’s also interesting, the surprise by so many people that I do that small little thing. But I think it’s like the butterflies batting their wings. I think that there’s some validity to that perspective.
Shana James (18:14)
Yeah, the more of us that actually do it, the more of us who flap our wings…
Shaun (18:21)
Yeah, because if that person said, “hey, that person said hello to me on my walk today, what’s that all about?” And they think about it, and they do it with somebody else…that’s…
Shana James (18:21)
…where more change can happen. I love that vision!
Maybe I’ll go home and be nicer to my partner or have more compassion for someone else.
Shaun (18:41)
It’s a little thing but yeah, that’s part of the practice for me.
Shana James (18:45)
Beautiful. Are there things that get in your way, or it sounds to me like you have a very strong commitment. So even if something could get in your way, it seems like you are transcending that in order to bring more love.
But are there moments where you’re like ugh, I don’t feel like it or I feel grumpy or I feel scarce or…?
Shaun (19:11)
Yeah, sometimes I know my baseline is off, and it could be a variety of different things. It could just be something’s not going my way, or something is disappointing, or somebody else is hurting, and so it’s harder when something affects the baseline.
Being aware of that and being able to reset is important for how to love someone.
Shana James (19:48)
That’s the practice! That you actually can reset. You can feel all the sensations, the feelings or whatever’s there, and it sounds like you choose to reset, to choose love, or being loving.
Shaun (20:00)
Yeah, or joy. It’s so much better. It feels so good.
Shana James (20:07)
Yeah, it does feel better. I know there are moments where I get twisted up inside myself, but I have enough capacity now from meditation and things like that, that instead of reacting to someone, I usually pause and go internal and reset, like you said.
It’s not always easy to get out of that internal feeling at times, but I can still act externally with love.
Shaun (20:42)
Right, so I’m curious, is there something that would happen for you regularly that would offset your baseline?
Shana James (20:53)
Parenting!
Shaun (20:59)
Well, you have a 13 year old and my kids are older. There are some memories where I can understand that it’s tougher. You’re in the midst of it right now, and you’re thinking about it in the midst of it. I wasn’t thinking about this as much back then.
It can help, right?
Shana James (21:27)
Yeah, it does. It helps. My kid and I had a little scuffle the other morning when she didn’t want to get out of bed to go to basketball. And I said, we had already agreed that you were going to get up and go.
It was a moment where we were both not very loving. And I, as the adult, feel like I should be the one to model being loving. And so I came back around to say, “I’m sorry. That I was not very loving.”
And actually to her credit, she made an amazing joke out of it. She said, “yeah, well I was totally calm that whole time. And I did a great job,” And I said, “yeah, me too.”
Shaun (22:11)
So she was kind of picking up on it.
Shana James (22:14)
Yeah, we both knew it, and it took us a day or so and then we came back around, and we could both say, “That wasn’t my best. We weren’t very loving at that moment.”
Shaun (22:25)
Which is the practice, right?
Shana James (22:29)
Exactly. I know I’m not going to always get it right, but I am consistently practicing. And if I do something like that, I notice, Oof, that was not what I wanted to do.
Shaun (22:41)
Yeah, I think where the practice falls off in any relationship, or even just the concept of, ‘how can I engage everyone from a position of love,’ is the ego. I mean, do I need to be right? And underneath that: Am I afraid? And what am I afraid of?
Shana James (23:07)
And what am I afraid of! Great question.
Shaun (23:11)
And those are the things that really, I think, disrupt our ability to love someone.
Shana James (23:17)
Yes, and what would it be like to be able to say, “I notice I’m feeling afraid of X right now,” instead of acting it out, lashing it out.
Again, when I look at how I grew up and the examples that I had from the older generation, I don’t think many of them had the capacity to be able to say, “I’m actually afraid right now, that’s why I’m lashing out.”
Shaun (23:45)
Right.
Shana James (23:46)
So that creates an issue.
Shaun (23:47)
Well, and definitely most dudes are not up for that either. I mean, even having a conversation about love. Just that word is very… And everybody comes a whole bunch of different definitions. And as men primarily, love equates to sex often. So they think, that’s what you’re talking about [sex], right? Because everything else doesn’t really matter, does it?
Particularly in the circles we’re in, as we talk about it, it makes for an interesting conversation because of all the conditioning we still have to get through.
Shana James (24:30)
Yeah, is there anything you want to say to everybody, but maybe especially men on that? How have you broken through that conditioning, or what helps you?
Shaun (24:41)
I think it’s getting to that self-awareness and self-confidence to just be who you’re going to be.
That can be really hard because the idea that we grew up with socially, particularly as it relates to the conditioning of being a man or a woman, is that there is a way you’re supposed to be. You’re supposed to be strong and you’re not supposed to be emotional and all these other things.
Shana James (24:58)
What do you mean by “be who you’re gonna be?”
Shaun (25:17)
I’m not always strong and I’m going be emotional. Can you be okay with that?
And in particular situations suffer the consequences if people you’re around aren’t going to accept you for that.
So I think it’s a self-confidence that has to…I mean I’m 61, and for 40 years I’ve carried a purse, what I call a purse. Somebody might call it a man bag because they don’t want to call it a purse, but it’s a purse.
It doesn’t have to be gendered, Shana, right? Because it’s a bag. It’s a bag because it’s so freaking practical.
When I was a kid, my mom had a pocketbook, and my dad didn’t. I was like, why don’t you have a pocketbook? And I thought, I’m getting a pocketbook.
Can we be comfortable as men, being who we’re going to be, and having the confidence that we don’t have to follow those conditions?
Shana James (26:30)
Those norms, those cultural conditions, the box, right? You don’t have to stay inside the box.
I think that’s important for all of us, for all people of all genders. How can we be loving to ourselves first, and not force ourselves to be someone we’re not?
And then how can we actually be loving toward others, and make room for others and their expression, even if it’s not how we would do it?
Shaun (26:42)
Yeah, I agree.
Shana James (27:01)
Do you have a last word of wisdom or tip for how to engage everyone from a position of love?
Shaun (27:17)
I think curiosity is a big part of it. Bringing curiosity to meeting another human being and finding out what they might be all about, and what they bring to a conversation in a first meeting, and how that can be really enriching for my life.
When I think about all the different people I meet every day and how unique they are and how interesting they are in their own way, that ends up being better for my life. I guess part of it is curiosity that I would add to the love definition, and how to love someone well.
Shana James (28:04)
Yeah, that’s a big part of my definition of love and being loving. Practicing love is being curious because otherwise, if we’re rigid about what we know and who we are, there’s no room for dialogue or permeability or intimacy in there.
I think oftentimes we get less and less curious about people over time, but also strangers. I know I’ve got snap judgments about people and who they are, and whether they’re going to be, someone who I connect with or not.
And can I actually let that go, noticing that and then engage, like you said, from love?
Shaun (28:45)
Yeah and I’m not going to be in a close relationship with everyone the same way I am with my wife or my kids or my closest friends but I can still love them.
The strength of those relationships is going to be different but if I can have love as the foundation for all of it, I think I’m winning if I’m doing that.
Shana James (29:14)
I love that. That definitely resonates with why I started the podcast. How do we practice love and how do we have more of it? Because, for most of us, life is more enjoyable when we have more of it.
Shaun (29:20)
Right. I couldn’t agree more. Thank you.
Shana James (29:32)
Thank you for being here. How do people find Men Living and all the work you’re doing?
Shaun (29:39)
Menliving.org and my email address is Shaun @ menliving.org, if people want to reach me directly.
I do a podcast as well, with my friend, Chris Lozier, and we have one with you that your guests will want to listen to: If You’ve Come This Far: https://rss.com/podcasts/ifyouvecomethisfar/1782627/
Shana James (30:03)
Awesome. Thank you so much for helping us understand how to love someone, and how to love in general, in a bigger way.
Shaun (30:04)
Thanks, always a pleasure.
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