We explore what happens when being “the one who saves” starts costing you connection with yourself and others. Brent Perkins joins me to unpack how overgiving and self-abandonment can masquerade as love, and what it really takes to move from trying to be the hero to letting yourself be human. You’ll learn to give without depletion, create agreements instead of expectations, and practice the art of receiving love as fully as you give it.
Find out how to have the best love and sex of your life!
You Don’t Have to Be the Hero: The Shift from Overgiving to Real Love: Show Notes
If you’ve ever been an over-giver, caretaker, or people-pleaser, you may know the exhaustion of always trying to keep the peace or make things work. You might even find yourself feeling unappreciated, disappointed, or unloved — despite how much you give.
This is part of the Hero complex today’s Practicing Love Podcast guest, Brent Perkins, describes. Brent is a leadership interventionist. He was a CEO for 10 years on the Inc 5000 list. He is the founder of 3X Bold, the Director of Leadership at Row Front Row Dads, and author of Papercuts: The Art of Self-Delusion.
We talk about what happens when our identities are built around being needed, performing, or saving others. While it can feel powerful at first, over time it often leads to depletion, resentment, and self-abandonment. Brent shares how to get from the hero complex back to human.
In this conversation, we explore:
- How the hero complex erodes intimacy and trust
- The difference between giving and contributing
- Why expectations often create pain — and how to replace them with clear agreements
- How to build the capacity to be a leader in relationships, rather than a reactor
- Why learning to receive is just as vital as learning to give
This episode shows you how to care deeply for others, without losing yourself in the process. Brent is an inspiring man, who has learned to be a powerful leader and lover, without sacrificing himself. We have some exciting collaborations we are working on for 2026 so keep an eye out.
When you’re done with this one, check out this Man Alive episode on how to stop self-sabotage.
Links:
Connect with Shana James
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Connect with Brent
Bio:
Brent built companies. Raised two daughters. Held it all. Until he realized he was the problem. He was the leader who never needed help. The father with all the answers. The “go-to” everyone could count on
What he didn’t see?
His strength was creating everyone’s weakness. The need to be THE ONE nearly destroyed him.
Today, he works with fathers who run successful companies. He helps them build capacity. Not by choosing between business, family, and themselves, but by creating the internal infrastructure to show up fully in all three.
This work starts with permission. Permission to stop performing. Permission to build capacity instead of burning through it. Permission to collapse the three-ring circus into one integrated life.
Brent’s journey has included:
- CEO of multiple 7&8 figure businesses, IPO launch and failure
- Led teams of 50+ across global operations
- Facilitated workshops, lectures + keynotes in 37 countries
- 2x Inc. 5000 honoree for rapid growth and innovation
- Board member and Director of Leadership: Front Row Dads
- Best-selling author of Papercuts: The Art of Self-Delusion
Transcript:
Shana James (00:02.341)
Hello and welcome to this episode of Man Alive. I’m your host, Shana James, and I’m thrilled to be here today to talk about being a hero — and whether you might be addicted to being a hero without realizing it.
We’ll explore how this impacts your life and love, and how being a hero — something we’d think would create success — often comes with a very high cost.
We’ll talk about the shift from overgiving to creating real love.
I’m joined today by an amazing guest, Brent Perkins. Welcome, Brent. Thank you so much for being here.
Brent Perkins (00:37.004)
Yeah, I’m honored to be here, Shana.
Shana James (00:39.845)
So, Brent sat in the CEO role for 10 years, traveled the world, and led incredible teams — so he brings a big-picture perspective. He’s now a leadership interventionist, the Director of Leadership at Front Row Dads, a board member, founder of 3X Bold, and author of Paper Cuts: The Art of Self-Delusion. I imagine that ties into the hero addiction, but you can tell us more about that.
Let’s start with this — what is a “leadership interventionist”?
Brent Perkins (01:21.442)
That’s a good question. Maybe we should ChatGPT this thing!
Shana James (01:24.869)
Ha!
Brent Perkins (01:32.078)
What I’ve found is that I’m not really a coach, a strategist, or an executive advisor — and yet I step into all those roles. Especially through my work at Front Row Dads — which is such a beautiful organization for fathers; I really encourage men to check it out — my role is about holding people accountable and helping them learn to be kind, not just nice.
That means showing up grounded and centered — loving, authentic, and real — and not pulling punches.
Shana James (02:11.749)
So you do this for leaders to help them not only be more successful, but also not have to sacrifice themselves or their lives in the process?
Brent Perkins (02:22.06)
Exactly. Leaders often don’t have anyone who talks to them in this way. Or if they do, it’s usually someone who shames or even gaslights them — because that’s how people communicate climbing the ladder. It’s rare to have someone who speaks to them honestly, directly, and thoughtfully.
Shana James (02:40.209)
Yeah. I’m so glad you’re there for them.
And I imagine you’ve had your own struggles, right? As we dive into this idea of hero addiction — or what we might also call the hero complex — can you start by defining what you mean by “hero”?
Brent Perkins (03:08.642)
Sure. There’s a tighter psychological definition of the “hero complex,” but I like to use the phrase hero addiction. That’s actually the title of the book I’m writing right now — The Hero Addiction. It’s meant to be a bit provocative, because most people I talk to don’t identify as heroes.
Shana James (03:30.363)
Right, they don’t see themselves that way.
Brent Perkins (03:38.434)
Exactly. But once we dig in, it starts to click. What we’re really talking about is being “the one.”
Being “the one” means stepping in before others fail. Fixing things before they try. Holding everything so they don’t have to. We’re the ones up at midnight answering emails, rescheduling meetings, or solving issues that didn’t get handled. We carry emotional weight for our kids or family members because we’re afraid they can’t handle it themselves.
Shana James (04:16.207)
It’s funny — as I hear you say that, I think, “Right… that’s just what we do as humans.” It feels so familiar, like a default role.
Brent Perkins (04:23.679)
There’s nothing inherently wrong with helping or stepping in. But when we become the one for everyone except ourselves, it turns into self-abandonment — which is a slippery slope into some pretty dark places.
Shana James (04:40.623)
Yeah. What’s been your personal experience with that?
Brent Perkins (04:44.325)
Most high performers — people who care deeply and want to do great things — are somewhere on the unhealthy end of this spectrum. And that’s not a judgment; it’s just being real about where we are so we can start shifting.
Shana James (05:01.137)
Would you be willing to share how you’ve self-abandoned or how you started noticing it?
Brent Perkins (05:08.183)
Sure. I’m an over-functioner by nature. I’m not amazing at any one thing, but I’m good at a lot of things — so I can figure things out, step in, and get things done. I’ll get into a rhythm where it’s just easier or faster to do it myself — whether at work, for my kids, or for my partner.
Shana James (05:34.769)
Right, that “I’ll just do it myself” mindset.
Brent Perkins (05:41.537)
Exactly. But I’ve had to slow down and remind myself — they can handle it. They’ve got it.
Shana James (05:48.401)
What are some other ways men might start to see, “Oh, I’m doing this too”?
Brent Perkins (05:58.487)
It happens a lot for men who are providers. The conversations we have with our kids and partners are very different from the ones we have at work — especially in leadership roles.
Shana James (06:11.803)
Mm-hmm.
Brent Perkins (06:16.866)
Your family doesn’t respond to you like your team might. They don’t “bow down” or automatically agree. They push back — and that’s normal and healthy — but it doesn’t always feel good.
That’s not necessarily part of the hero pattern, but it does cause a lot of men (myself included) to retreat. We become more reclusive and start finding our sense of value in work instead. Then we become “the one” at work — and what we do starts to define who we are.
Shana James (07:04.721)
Got it. So a man comes home from work, and maybe he’s not getting that instant yes or the kind of respect he’s used to at work. Kids push back, partners have their own needs and boundaries — and while part of us might want compliance, we also don’t want that, because real love means relating to another whole person.
But that tension can make the hero addiction even stronger at work, because that’s where the validation comes more easily.
Brent Perkins (07:50.646)
Exactly. And then resentment starts to build elsewhere. Even when we do get recognition, it’s rarely the kind we’re hoping for. Whether we realize it or not, we almost never receive the “respect” we imagine we deserve. And over time, little granules of resentment build up — every time we step in, fix, carry, or handle something.
Shana James (08:23.567)
Mmm. So, you’re saying we end up solving, carrying, and fixing — and then resentment grows. For men listening, how might they recognize this pattern in themselves? What might they notice happening around them or inside them?
Brent Perkins (08:52.395)
What I’ve seen in myself — and in the couple hundred men I’ve worked with — is that the more you do, the more you expect something back. Whether it’s emptying the dishwasher or taking on an extra project, you start to feel like you’re owed something — that eventually things will balance out.
But what’s actually happening is that we’re stealing capacity from others. We’re robbing them of growth by over-functioning. So ironically, the more we do, the worse it gets.
Shana James (09:36.677)
Got it. So there are two sides to this: one, that we’re unintentionally stealing capacity from others — which can go unnoticed for a while — and two, internally, we start to feel resentment, frustration, that “I have to do it all” kind of exhaustion.
Brent Perkins (10:07.277)
It’s a little different for everybody. For me, it got to a point. And I say that other piece because that external part you spoke to first isn’t really visible to most of us until we pay close attention to it. The reason it’s getting worse — the reason we now feel like, yes, I have to do it all, or what is wrong with people? They don’t respect me. I do all this work, I make this money, I show up, I’m here — what more do they want from me? — is because the more we step in and become “the one” for somebody else, the less that person has to carry or show up or learn to handle.
And it just snowballs.
Shana James (10:59.089)
Okay, so I’m starting to get that people don’t necessarily know, Oh, I’m addicted to being a hero. One of the telltale signs could actually be irritation, frustration, or even a sense that people aren’t as good as you are — like, I can do this better, so why not just do it? But then resentment builds.
Brent Perkins (11:33.909)
You said it perfectly. That’s exactly what happens.
Shana James (11:39.185)
Before we go into how to deal with that or overcome it, is there anything else you’re seeing that you want to make clear?
Brent Perkins (11:56.96)
I just want to call out the paradox here.
Brent Perkins (12:03.051)
The more we…
Brent Perkins (12:08.865)
The more we need, I wouldn’t even say we’re addicted to being heroes — I’d say we’re addicted to being needed. Which gets into codependency, a conversation nobody wants to have, but it’s real. The paradox is that the more you’re the one for other people — whatever that looks like for you — the less you’re the one for yourself.
Brent Perkins (12:37.729)
That means the more you do for others, the more you self-abandon. And then you start performing from depletion — being selfless, but from an empty place.
Shana James (12:52.713)
Right. So in addition to the irritation or sense that others aren’t doing things as well, there’s also depletion, burnout, that feeling of ugh, life just isn’t as vital or exciting as it used to be.
Brent Perkins (13:16.555)
Yeah — and, I don’t have time for it because I’m doing all this for everyone else.
Shana James (13:24.721)
So when someone comes to you and you realize together that they have this addiction to being a hero — or to being needed — how do you help them start making changes?
Brent Perkins (13:42.189)
First, you have to be able to see it. One of the ways I help people see it is through a quadrant graph I use that really surprises them. They plot themselves based on just two questions:
How do you show up — what are you doing — and is it more self-ish or self-less?
Most people push themselves into the selfless side. Especially in these patterns, most of what they’re doing is for other people. Even if they’re working long hours…
Shana James (14:28.721)
Interesting.
Shana James (14:34.235)
Right, right.
Brent Perkins (14:39.265)
They’re doing it “for the sake of the family” — at least that’s what they tell themselves.
Shana James (14:44.655)
That makes total sense. The selflessness of being on a team or running a business — getting things done not because it makes you happy, but because there’s a bottom line or people depending on you.
Brent Perkins (14:58.263)
Exactly. And honestly, a lot of people are scared of what comes with being called selfish — they think it means being a narcissist. But there’s also a really ugly side of selflessness: martyrdom.
Shana James (15:20.497)
Tell us more.
Brent Perkins (15:24.749)
Most of us who live in the extreme of selflessness don’t see that we’re actually being martyrs. Victimhood comes with that, but we don’t recognize it.
That’s just one dimension, though. The other big one is on the Y-axis of this graph — the “being” axis. If the horizontal axis is about doing— selfish to selfless — then the vertical axis is about being while you’re doing.
At the bottom is self-poor; at the top is self-rich. Depletion versus abundance. What I find is that most leaders, parents, and high performers end up heavily selfless — but also below the line in self-poor. That’s why that quadrant is what I call the performing quadrant.
Shana James (16:29.371)
Self-poor. Uh-huh.
Shana James (16:37.537)
Interesting.
Brent Perkins (16:39.521)
And the more we perform, the more it leads to burnout — because we’re giving from depletion.
Shana James (16:44.955)
Yeah. And part of me is like — is there really any other way? With everything going on in the world, kids, businesses… is it even possible?
Brent Perkins (17:00.621)
It is. But sometimes it’s really hard to see that it’s possible. I just talked with a friend yesterday who’s so deep in this pattern. It brought him to tears just imagining what would happen if he stopped doing so much — yet he knows it’s killing him.
The flip side is the upper-right quadrant. So if we stay in the selfless place — say, being a “servant leader” — that can be altruistic, but it’s often misunderstood. Because true giving, I think, actually happens below the line.
When people say, “I’m a giver,” I think, okay — like going to Goodwill, cleaning out your closet, and giving your old clothes away. You didn’t ask who wants them or needs them. Some people might — but are you really being additive?
Shana James (18:12.945)
So you’re making a distinction between giving and…
Shana James (18:35.905)
Aha, okay. Yeah.
Brent Perkins (18:35.905)
Above the line is contributing. Giving is done mindlessly; we don’t know the impact. Contributing means we’re paying attention, and we’re adding value — maybe by listening, showing up, being present, offering energy.
Shana James (18:45.777)
That’s really powerful — the distinction between leading and performing, giving versus contributing. Especially that subtle difference between giving and contributing: if you’re giving without sensing the impact or how it aligns with your own resources, that’s a recipe for disaster.
Brent Perkins (19:24.685)
There’s an old adage for parents: “Lessons are caught, not taught.”
If you’re teaching lessons, you’re in that performing/giving quadrant. If you’re modeling, you’re in the leading/contributing quadrant. And the only way to do that is to be self-rich — abundant in what you give to yourself.
Shana James (19:58.299)
God, I’m thinking about parenting — how there are moments where it feels like I’m letting my kid down if I don’t teach her a lesson or help her understand something. And yet, like you said, it’s so rare that I try to teach something and it actually lands that way.
But it’s hard to watch whether it’s kids or others walking around and doing things in the world that you can see might create pain or suffering and let it happen.
And yet, if we don’t let it happen, how are they going to learn? Especially our kids.
Brent Perkins (20:49.165)
100%. This is why I believe it’s so important to create a sandbox for our kids to fall off the slide into. And know that I’ll put a bandaid on a scratch knee, or maybe I’ll have to go fix an arm, but they’re probably not gonna die.
Shana James (21:15.281)
Right, okay, so trying to be the one for others without self abandoning…
Brent Perkins (21:32.781)
Well, there’s one other interesting point I want to note. If giving is below the line and contributing is above the line, I think we forget they’re only 50% of the equation. It’s like a coin — one side is giving, and the other side, I believe, is taking. So taking is below the line.
Shana James (21:38.097)
Okay. Yeah.
Shana James (21:54.609)
Okay, taking versus receiving.
Brent Perkins (21:58.773)
Yes, exactly. So receiving is above the line. The opposite of giving in this equation is taking. The opposite of contributing is receiving. This is why, when we give, we’re often afraid of the other side of it — not of receiving, but of taking. But when we contribute, it’s much easier to also receive. You have to do both. Otherwise, you’re actually stealing the ability of someone else to contribute.
Shana James (22:15.249)
That’s beautiful.
Shana James (22:27.919)
Well, yeah.
Brent Perkins (22:28.916)
Right? You’re taking that from them, because they can’t complete the equation unless you allow them to give back.
Shana James (22:35.791)
I really like this, because most men I work with…
Shana James (22:41.765)
…have a hard time receiving. I mean, most people I work with do, but with men there’s something specific. When I give a man acknowledgment, or we look at something he’s done well, I often pause and say, “Did you hear that? Did that get in? Where did that go?” And it’s been profound for many of the men I’ve worked with to actually take something in and shift their sense of self — simply because they allow themselves to receive.
Brent Perkins (23:19.318)
And this goes back to what we want to model for our kids. How will our kids ever know how to step into that healthy contributing — or giving — place if we’re never able to receive from them?
Shana James (23:40.859)
I had a moment with my daughter this morning where she thanked me for driving her to school. Yesterday she realized she’s going to a new school and said, “That’s going to be two hours of driving for you today.” I said, “Yep.” And she said, “Thank you.” Then she thanked me again today. I thought, wow — something’s happening. Parenting can be so thankless, so to be thanked for something like that really landed.
I think as we model thanking our kids, appreciating them, repairing when things go wrong — not expecting ourselves to be perfect parents, but showing how to do this consciously together — we’re teaching something vital.
In my family growing up, I often got teased for appreciating people too much. People would say, “Why are you thanking your husband for doing something he should just do?” And I’d think, well, if we see it like that, who’s going to want to contribute to us? And second, what am I modeling for my kid? Expectation, entitlement… or appreciation and connection?
Brent Perkins (25:03.596)
This could open up a bigger conversation, but I’ll just plant a seed here. The earliest work I did on this, about a decade ago, was with Christine Hassler—she’s amazing. The biggest lesson I learned was about seeing life through the lens of expectations versus agreements.
We show up everywhere—especially with kids, partners, coworkers, even baristas—with expectations. What’s the coffee shop going to smell like? Will they spell my name right? Did they call my order loud enough? Expectations are everywhere. But we rarely make agreements.
Agreements don’t have to be written contracts—they’re shared understandings. When we make agreements, two people come to the table and say, “Hey, I have expectations. I know that’s not fair, but they’re thoughts and ideas I have.” Then we blend them and create an agreement that meets both people halfway.
And here’s the coolest part: when an expectation isn’t met, it feels personal. “You broke my expectation, I’m angry, what’s wrong with you?” But when an agreement is broken, it becomes this third thing between us. I can just say, “Huh, that’s strange. I thought we had an agreement.” Then we can have a calm conversation about that—not about you or me. It completely changes the energy and how the nervous system responds.
Shana James (27:12.761)
Yes, that’s so different.
Shana James (27:17.617)
There’s much more curiosity instead of “This is how it’s supposed to go.” That demand energy shuts people down so quickly.
Shana James (27:32.815)
Okay, I like this zigzag track, because as we get into self-abandonment, people can start to check in: Do I have an addiction to being a hero? Do I have an addiction to being needed? How am I showing up? Can I show up in a way that’s both honoring and sovereign for myself and, as you’ve said, truly contributing to others—rather than overgiving or taking away from their lessons and growth?
Brent Perkins (28:12.95)
Exactly. The journey to get there requires exploring the other side of the spectrum we haven’t touched yet. We’ve talked about the selfless side—but what lives on the selfish side?
Shana James (28:28.421)
Yeah.
Brent Perkins (28:36.32)
What’s above the line there is being self-rich—abundant and grounded in yourself. That’s the developing quadrant, where we build capacity. Because most of us, honestly, are out of capacity in this world.
That’s where my work lies—helping people build the capacity to move from depletion to abundance, so we can lead and contribute from a fuller place.
Shana James (29:05.073)
The capacity for what?
Brent Perkins (29:05.394)
The capacity for energy, attention, and presence. Those are the three I focus on. We think we need more time or money, but those are byproducts of deeper capacity.
When we have energy, attention, and presence, we can pause instead of react. We can see that most of what others are projecting is about them—not us.
This is what I wrote about in The Art of Self-Delusion. When you have capacity, you can let things roll off your back and stay connected without getting hooked.
I call it connected detachment: being fully connected with whoever or whatever you’re engaged with, but detached from the outcome or expectation. You let go of control while staying plugged in. That’s real capacity—and it changes how we show up in the world.
Shana James (30:24.273)
I love that. I teach a course for men about creating effortless affection, connection, and sex. One of the first modules is all about attention.
You’re either at the helm, choosing where your attention goes, or you’re being whipped around by every single thing coming at you—which, these days, is too much, too fast, too often.
Brent Perkins (30:57.376)
Yeah. There was a chapter in the book, Papercuts, about attention, but I called it the intent to be intentional. The example I used was this: okay, you’re being intentional — you’ve got a date night set with your partner. That’s great. You’ve set the intention, and you’re ready to give them your attention.
But if you’re running late, driving fast, rushing home without time to shower or brush your teeth, technically you’re being intentional, but where was the intent on the front end? If the date starts at five, maybe it actually started at four — giving yourself time to slow down, transition, and let go of whatever else you were doing. That kind of preparation takes your attention to a whole other level.
Shana James (31:55.089)
Okay, anything you want to say before we wrap up? Anything we missed?
Brent Perkins (32:00.769)
Just to tie it together for people — we’ve talked about being selfless, but how that can live below the line as performing. What we really want is to move above the line into leading and contributing. But to get there, we have to build capacity.
I call this journey going from hero — the performing quadrant — to human, which is the upper right-hand quadrant. That’s what my work and my upcoming book are about: guiding people through that hero to human journey.
Shana James (32:22.929)
Hmm.
Brent Perkins (32:30.056)
That’s where the Hero Addiction title comes from. It’s about helping people walk through the process of stepping back into being human — which, like you said earlier, is actually effortless. Because when we stop performing, stop wearing masks, stop pretending and dancing, we can finally just be.
Shana James (32:52.497)
Yeah. Yeah, thank you. I think so many people need this. I can feel even in myself how fear comes up — like, “I’m going to disappoint people,” or “I won’t make enough money,” or whatever the story is.
And I love that you’re walking people through those fears, because on our own it’s so easy to stop there and not see what’s possible. With your perspective and your listening, you open up possibilities that we can’t even see for ourselves.
Brent Perkins (33:32.81)
Yes — and the possibility that it’s actually not as hard as we make it out to be. When we give ourselves permission not to self-abandon, the world, our kids, our partners… they just want us.
Shana James (33:55.601)
So good. Where can people find more of you?
Brent Perkins (34:01.578)
All my work is on my website, 3xbold.com. Whether you want to explore Front Row Dads, the books I’ve written, or this Hero to Human journey — it’s all there.
Shana James (34:16.081)
Awesome. Thank you so much for being here, and thank you for turning your life experiences into wisdom that helps others lead without self-sacrificing or self-abandoning. Because when we do that, we don’t actually get to have the rest of it — not truly.
Success doesn’t feel amazing if we’re too exhausted to receive it, or too burnt out to celebrate or enjoy our lives. So thank you for this reminder and for the work you’re doing.
Brent Perkins (34:54.817)
Yeah.
Brent Perkins (35:02.988)
You know, until maybe the last 50 years, we’ve never had access to do all the things we can do today. And it’s left us under-resourced. We weren’t built to live that way.
My ultimate goal is to give people permission to step into resourcing themselves — because that’s how we’re truly built.
Shana James (35:32.433)
Thank you so much.
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