In this episode I talk with Rick Broniec, author of Power Tools for Men and a longtime leader in the ManKind Project, about sexual healing for men — and what becomes possible when men begin to experience sexuality as a pathway to deeper connection with themselves and their partners.
Sexual Healing for Men: From Performance to Intimacy, Pleasure and Connection: Show Notes
We tend to talk about men’s sexuality as something they do, initiate, and perform.
They “get the job done!”
But this can feel limiting, and dismissive of a man’s humanity.
The men I work with are discovering that sexuality can go much deeper.
I recently had a fascinating conversation with Rick Broniec, author of Power Tools for Men and a longtime leader in the ManKind Project. Rick has been doing men’s work for more than three decades, and one of the most important things we talked about was sexual healing for men.
Rick said something that thrilled me:
“I’m 74 years old and more sexually fulfilled and having more fun and intimate sex than ever before.”
I love this so much because often what’s talked about with sexuality and aging is what you lose. Rick and I talked about what is possible!
We talked about learning how to experience sex with your whole body, and how men don’t always have to be the ones doing something — that they can also receive love, care, touch, and pleasure.
We also discussed…
- The profound shame that can surround men’s sexuality and the importance of loving yourself
- The ways the Man Box can disconnect men from their bodies and their emotions
- The connection between sexuality and spirituality
- What to do when you feel hurt or defensive
- And that sex isn’t just something men do to another. It’s something they share.
When men become more connected to themselves, their bodies, their desires, and their vulnerability, their relationships change. There’s more room for honesty, intimacy, pleasure, and to actually be known and supported.
It’s a beautiful conversation about what can happen when men allow themselves to be more real.
Rick and I are both clear: There is healing available for men. If you aren’t sure what step to take, simply reply and let me know what you’re struggling with.
Links:
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www.WisdomWindfall.com(opens in new tab)
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Bio:
Rick Broniec, M.Ed. is an author, speaker, Men’s Personal Growth Coach, Sex Coach, and skilled workshop facilitator. He has been a leader of men’s trainings with the ManKind Project since 1990. Rick has facilitated men’s personal growth workshops in 16 countries on five continents for many thousands of men, which gives him a unique window into the needs and issues of men. Rick has also been deeply involved in Leadership and Multicultural work for MKP and several other organizations, as well as for his two companies. Rick has a particular passion to help heal sexual wounds of men and women and has been involved in sexual healing for over 35 years.
Rick is an Amazon bestseller author of The Seven Generations Story: An Incentive to Heal Yourself, Your Family and the Planet (2015) and A Passionate Life: 7 Steps for Reclaiming Your Passion, Purpose and Joy (2011). Rick’s third book focuses on men’s healing work and was co-authored with dear friend Leonard Szymczak. This book, Power Tools for Men: A Blueprint for Healthy Masculinity, was published in May 2023 and became an instant Amazon Best Seller.
Transcript:
Shana James (00:00)
Hello and welcome to this episode of Practicing Love. Have the best love and sex of your life. I’m your host, Shana James, and I’m excited to be here today with an amazing man to talk about having sex that goes deeper than just the physical: that is more intimate, more connected, more, I would venture to say, ecstatic, pleasurable, all of these amazing things that men want and sometimes don’t know how to create.
And it creates a very vulnerable situation to want something that you then don’t know how to generate or co-create. So, Rick Broniec, thank you so much for being here to have this conversation.
Rick Broniec (00:39)
What a joy to be with you, Shana. Yeah.
Shana James (00:41)
I’m so happy to have you. And just for a quick intro, you have done a lot in the past thirty-five years. You’re an author, you’re a speaker, you’ve coached executive teams, you’ve been a sex coach. I’m just looking through your bio. You’ve been leading trainings with the Mankind Project for what, since 1990? So that’s over thirty-five —
Rick Broniec (01:01)
Thirty-six.
Shana James (01:02)
Years, thirty-six years. You’ve really supported thousands of men to both step into their leadership, into their power, and to break through the Man Box, as one of your books, Power Tools for Men, talks about, right? How can you be a conscious, fulfilled man? Yay, holding up the image for those of you who are able to see it. Perfect.
Rick Broniec (01:25)
Rich.
Shana James (01:28)
Well, thank you so much for being here. And is there anything you want to say about your path to becoming a leader, becoming a coach? What inspires you about this?
Rick Broniec (01:40)
Yeah, thank you, Shana. That’s a — I love the introduction. My path, yeah, it’s been difficult. Both my parents were rape survivors, and neither one received any treatment, any care. They never talked about it. But as you can well imagine, knowing from the work we do, it deeply colored my early childhood. And I was really messed up sexually as a result of some of that and, you know, other things that happened to me.
And I knew this wasn’t right. I knew there was something different, something better. And so I’ve been on a search for a long time for what that was. And, of course, constantly bumping up against all the societal—I’ll use the word norms — that are pumped into all of us, but us men especially. You know, we are —
We’re handicapped or kneecapped from almost from birth, maybe before birth. Lots of evidence shows that the way parents talk to girl babies, if they know the gender of their child, versus the way they talk to their boy babies is completely different.
Shana James (03:15)
Yeah.
Rick Broniec (01:40)
Yeah, and it starts before birth and continues on forevermore, unless men take the opportunity to do personal growth work, to start diving into the real truth about themselves as men and start challenging all of those stories that we carry about what is a man, how do I get out of that Man Box? And particularly around sexuality. It’s so freaking terrifying for men, you know. And I don’t need to tell you that because you’re a sex —
Shana James (03:15)
Yeah.
Yeah. No, no. I’m curious, is there anything you’re willing to say personally about something that was a challenge, a struggle, that you then got to really overcome or work with?
Rick Broniec (03:31)
It’s gonna take more than a podcast. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Shana James (03:32)
I know. We could start with just one of them that speaks to you that you think will speak to other men.
Rick Broniec (03:36)
Okay. The primary one, and the one that most men face, is this idea of being vulnerable is so terrifying. And yet being vulnerable creates exactly what your work and my work, you know, says men need — and women need too, of course. But for men, it’s like pulling teeth to ask them to become vulnerable. They don’t even know what the word means.
Shana James (04:00)
Well, and then you add sex to that, and it — whoa.
Rick Broniec (04:04)
It’s whoa, right? Exactly right. I mean, we are acculturated from very, very early on to think of sex as something we do to women. Not that we share with women, that we do to women. And, of course, the whole porn industry exacerbates that belief, and movies and everything else that we get hammered with from early on. And so there’s a —
Shana James (04:28)
That’s —
Shana James (04:28)
huge. I mean, even just that distinction of we do to women versus we share with women.
Rick Broniec (04:36)
Yeah, and it’s this whole thing of men are the doers and women are the receivers, and it is such bullshit when it comes to authentic loving and great sexuality to be able to open up that part of me that can be a receiver, for example, and receive —
Shana James (04:53)
Yes.
Rick Broniec (04:54)
The — it’s gonna bring tears to my eyes — receive —
Shana James (04:56)
Good.
Rick Broniec (04:57)
the loving ministrations of someone who cares about me and wants to please me.
And I don’t have to do anything in return. I mean —
Shana James (05:06)
Yeah, yeah.
Rick Broniec (05:07)
This was a revelation. I had no clue that that was possible.
Shana James (05:11)
I just love seeing you touched by that. And supporting men to receive is one of my favorite things to do. It goes so, so deep into the heart and into places I can see in you that you had never touched before.
Rick Broniec (05:28)
Never touched, yeah. Yeah. And so that’s been my journey, overcoming the messages. A lot of that was tied in with the deeply mentally ill, schizophrenic mother, who I use the word religion-aholic. Yeah. So it was quite an interesting upbringing, and I’m the oldest of six kids.
Shana James (05:50)
Wow.
Rick Broniec (05:51)
My youngest sister is eighteen years younger than me.
Shana James (05:54)
My gosh. Yeah.
Rick Broniec (05:55)
My parents were separated seven times during my childhood. We — we —
Shana James (05:59)
My God.
Rick Broniec (06:00)
I moved seventeen times between birth and graduating high school and went to ten different schools.
Shana James (06:03)
Wow, okay. There was a lot, a lot happening.
Rick Broniec (06:08)
So somehow I came out of it as — as my wife says — halfway sane and —
Shana James (06:13)
I mean, it’s such a testament to the fact that someone else could have gone through these experiences and just collapsed, just felt defeated, hopeless, and that you came through, that you’re in loving relationships, that you’re having an amazing and intimate sex life gives so much hope, I think.
Rick Broniec (06:32)
It does. And I’m gonna say to your listeners, I’m seventy-four years old, and I’m more sexually active and have more fun being sexual, more fulfillment with my partner than I could have imagined when I was in my twenties and thirties, by far.
Shana James (06:48)
I love this. That’s what I —
Shana James (06:52)
say to people. So I love that you have it.
Rick Broniec (06:52)
Yeah. You know, this stuff works. It works, but it is not an easy thing to bring into one’s life, especially for —
Shana James (07:00)
Yes.
Rick Broniec (07:00)
other men.
Shana James (07:01)
So, so let’s start to talk about that, because it’s not the easy path, but I do believe it is, like you’re saying, it’s the fulfilling path and it’s the pleasurable and ecstatic path, right? Both sides are hard in different ways. So —
Rick Broniec (07:12)
Yep. Yeah.
Shana James (07:13)
I have a client who said to me, “My wife wants to have sex, and in some ways it feels like work right now.” And as I started to explore this with him, I said, “Well, if you knew what you wanted and you knew you were gonna have that experience, and you knew it wasn’t all on you to generate and make it happen and be responsible for, would you be more excited?” And he said, “Yeah, actually I would.”
And so I was like, “Okay, there’s a path for us to explore. What does he actually want and what’s getting in the way and all the things?” So can we use that as an example of — how did you start to traverse this not-easy path? What would you have him start to do?
Rick Broniec (08:02)
Well, I’d have to have some conversations with him, of course. But in general terms —
Shana James (08:04)
Of course, of course. We’re kind of talking in more general terms, but yeah.
Rick Broniec (08:09)
Number one, do some work, some deep dive into what he really finds pleasurable. Most men don’t know.
Shana James (08:15)
Yeah. Yes.
Rick Broniec (08:21)
It goes so far beyond that, and most men don’t have a clue. So what I would do with a client if I had a man like that, I’d say, “If you haven’t started it, start a masturbation practice. Learn what feels good to you. Learn what you don’t like. And I’m not just talking about your genitals. Touch your whole body. Learn what feels good. Work on your erotic life. Allow yourself to have the fantasies that most of us have, but are terrified of because we’re —
Shana James (08:57)
Yeah.
Rick Broniec (08:58)
we’re gonna be labeled pervert or whatever. Allow yourself to have that.”
Shana James (09:04)
Okay, so say a man hits up against these — this erotic life, and there are fantasies, and if this is too limiting, we can expand. I’m not trying to shove —
Rick Broniec (09:12)
No.
Shana James (09:13)
you down a tunnel, but it’s like, right, say these fantasies are terrifying. You know, what did you do with your fantasies that were terrifying to you?
Rick Broniec (09:23)
Well, the best thing I found was to act them out.
Shana James (09:26)
Hmm.
Rick Broniec (09:28)
Who was willing? Sometimes it was partners who were willing, and not only just willing, but all in for it. And we got to play, literally be playful with that and figure out what fits. I mean, is that really a fantasy, or is that something that came out of my — an artifact of my upbringing? Does — is that really a turn-on? And then, of course, comes the hard work of sharing that with your partner.
Shana James (09:56)
Right. And as I’m thinking about men who are married in monogamous relationships and they are worried, okay, they don’t necessarily have play partners. And so they’re worried, “What is she gonna think of me?”
I mean, I tend to go toward doing that inner work where you let go of the shame you have around your own fantasies to the point where you can actually talk about them, co-create them. Is there a frame you have around that for someone who can’t just go play them out, let’s say?
Rick Broniec (10:27)
Well, certainly. And to be clear, I’m not ever talking about anything that would be hurtful to anybody else. I’m talking about full consent, you know, all of that. And within that framework, there’s so much freedom to explore.
Shana James (10:42)
Yeah. Yeah.
Rick Broniec (10:44)
How can a man do that if he’s in a monogamous relationship? Well, he can start by trying, you know, dipping his toe into having honest conversations with his partner.
If she’s not willing to do that, then it makes it very, very difficult.
Shana James (11:01)
Yeah, it does. I mean, it makes it more difficult. But as we’re sitting here, I’m like, okay, there are people who are — what is it? Body electric practitioners, tantric practitioners, people who actually do this for a living. And also your partner might say, “Hell no, that is terrifying.” But if you say, “Okay, I get it, and let’s keep talking about it. This isn’t a rush, but there are certain things I’d like to experience.”
And maybe this is the safest way we find to do it, right? That could be a conversation that he would have.
Rick Broniec (11:38)
Totally. I mean, if the partner’s into improving their intimacy, their sex life, their connection, their loving, you know, then you can go full bore into the kind of thing you and I are talking about.
If they’re not, and unfortunately that’s too sadly often the case, then there’s some decisions that have to be made. I send clients to cuddlists, for example, people who practice safe, consensual touch with a man or a woman. And in that venue, they can very safely ask for what they want, so there’s no shame or worry about how they’re gonna be judged. They’re completely open.
Shana James (12:18)
And that’s platonic, more platonic to work with. Yep. Yeah. Yeah.
Rick Broniec (12:21)
It’s completely platonic. It’s non-sexual, but very sensual. And that’s what most men need. They don’t know it, but they need the sensualness. And that’s what most of their partners want from them, generally.
Shana James (12:35)
Yeah. Yeah.
Rick Broniec (12:37)
Of course, there’s times when partners want something different, but then you need to talk about it and set it up in a safe way, with consent and all that. So there’s places to go for men or women who have, I’ll say, recalcitrant partners, to begin to do that work on their own. And it’s —
Shana James (12:56)
Mm-hmm.
Rick Broniec (12:56)
hugely gratifying for men to do that, to come back and go, “My God, I had no idea that, for example, my nipples were so sensitive.”
Shana James (13:05)
Mm-hmm.
Rick Broniec (13:06)
I have a dear friend who orgasms just from nipple play.
That’s the range of expression, experience, touch that is available, and most men just — we cut ourselves off from that and —
Shana James (13:21)
Right. And that —
Rick Broniec (13:23)
suffer. Yeah.
Shana James (13:23)
Yes, and that’s just a physical example, right? I mean, the —
Rick Broniec (13:27)
Age.
Shana James (13:28)
Emotional, the spiritual, the depth of intimacy that you and I both know is possible can be mind-blowing. I mean, I’ve created these dates with my partner where we go back and forth. You know, one of us gets to choose something or ask for something.
And yeah, it’s beautiful and it’s been really —
Shana James (13:56)
hot and exciting. And oftentimes he says to me, “That was hot.” And one of my favorite parts was you —
Rick Broniec (13:56)
Uh-huh.
Shana James (13:57)
putting your hand on my heart and telling me how much I’m loved. The ways that he has never experienced being loved before in a sensual way.
Rick Broniec (14:05)
Exactly. Exactly. And in my opinion, sexuality and spirituality are so intertwined, you can’t have one without the other. And that’s the problem with our society, Shana. We separate sexuality and spirituality. Most churches do, to a very high degree. And it’s causing all kinds of pain, all kinds of trauma for men and women. I mean —
The level of sexual abuse, for example, that occurs in our society and particularly —
Shana James (14:39)
Religious systems and society.
Rick Broniec (14:41)
In the religious system, is absolutely mind-boggling and extremely, extremely sad. And I do a lot of work with women in the realm of multicultural work. And when we talk about sexism, I’m stunned how many women, when they feel safe,
will disclose, and it’s like ninety-five percent of them. Now, I don’t know if I’m just attracting that into the trainings that I do. I don’t think so. I think women are way more hurt sexually by our society, by the men in our world, than they can let on if they’re willing to disclose.
Now, a rape is obvious. I mean, that’s the far end of the spectrum. And even that gets underreported, severely underreported, in my opinion. And the same is true for men, Shana. I’ve worked with, as you know, thousands and thousands of men all over the world, 16 different countries, five continents, and their woundedness around their sexuality is profound.
And when they get a safe place to talk about it, many of them say, “Well, this is the first time I’ve ever disclosed this, but this —”
Shana James (15:49)
Yes.
Rick Broniec (15:50)
And that happened. And so there’s so much shame associated with it and so much taboo, religious-wise, that we just don’t talk about it in general, unless somebody’s lucky enough to have you for a coach.
Shana James (16:04)
Aww. Or —
you. Yeah. Or someone else, right, who does this work. But it’s like, right, I’ve had some of those conversations with men where it’s their first time sharing things that they’ve held on to from the time they were six years old or thirteen years old and have colored their view of themselves.
And I was just also reading Nick Papadopoulos and Jake Fishbein’s book that they shared at the Big Tent Summit we were both at together. And one of the pieces in there is about a man who had this view of himself from the time he was thirteen years old and was caught masturbating and thought of himself as a monster. I think his mother maybe even called him a monster. And then to just hold that by yourself and have that —
Rick Broniec (16:50)
It is heartbreaking, and so many men just shut down. Their aliveness is gone. ‘Cause sexuality is such an important part of aliveness. And it’s just shut down. They don’t know how to revive it.
I’m gonna share a quick story about my own father. I mentioned to you earlier that my father was an abuse survivor. I didn’t know that. Nobody in the family knew that. When my dad was about sixty-five, I realized that —
Rick Broniec (17:43)
Most men don’t get from their fathers that they’re loved, that they’re respected, that they’re appreciated. It’s called the father wound. It’s so prominent in men’s work that everybody talks about it.
I didn’t have that. I had a father who was exactly the opposite. He was extremely loving. He hugged me all the time, and all of his kids, and told us how much he loved us and respected us.
Rick Broniec (17:43)
I did. I was the first person in either one of my families to graduate from college.
My dad was so proud and so excited that he ran up on the stage during my procession, stopped the whole thing to hug me in front of thousands of people. I mean, he couldn’t help himself. That, I mean, that’s —
Shana James (17:56)
Wow.
Rick Broniec (17:57)
Okay. So, but what I wanted is the other side of my father. Like, he didn’t share his regrets, his mistakes, the —
Shana James (18:05)
Mm.
Rick Broniec (18:06)
the sorrows in his life because he was a salesman and he was used to being positive.
So he’s sixty-five, I’m in my late thirties. I have a family by then, but I want to talk to my dad about this. So I invite him one-on-one to go camping with me or fishing or something. It took six months for him to say yes. That’s because he was terrified. He knew — he knew something. He —
Shana James (18:28)
He knew what you were doing.
Rick Broniec (18:30)
He saw me doing growth work, and he realized that was changing. So we finally do — he finally agrees to go fishing five days at a lake up in way up in northern Wisconsin. Far — nobody else, right?
So every morning we get up at 5:30, we go out fishing, we come back in the afternoon, we cook our fish, have our dinner, and sit around the campfire.
And the first night my dad says, “Okay, Rick, you wanted something from me. What is it?” And I told him. And he started sharing these stories, Shana. I mean, he felt safe enough, and I think respected that I wanted to know.
And he started — some of the stories I’d heard, most of it was new to me — about, you know, what it was like being raised during the Depression. What it was like to have his father dying when he was fourteen years old.
Rick Broniec (18:30)
What it was like to put all of his dreams on hold and not go to college because he had to help support his mother and brother, because his father died when he was only fourteen.
On the last day, Shana — the last night, I think my dad finally felt safe enough, and we were connected enough, that he could share the story. And I knew that his father had died when he was fourteen. At his father’s funeral, his uncle, his mother’s brother —
Rick Broniec (20:33)
came up to his mother and said, “You can’t raise two boys by yourself during the Depression without a husband. I’ll take Bill, my dad, off of your hands and I’ll take care of him and raise him until you get back on your feet.”
And of course his mother said, “Great.” It was her brother, right?
And then my dad leans across the picnic table and says, “And Rick, that was the first night my uncle had sex with me.”
And you could have hit me with a sledgehammer and had less impact.
I said, “What did you just say, Dad?”
And of course I started crying, and he started crying. And I had the privilege of holding my father for hours while he sobbed. First time he’d ever talked about it. Sixty-five years old. So this had happened over fifty years before. And not only am I, of course, moved emotionally by my father, by his — the pain of this story, but I’m also looking back on it, realizing that’s the story of so many men who never talk about it.
Shana James (20:49)
Yeah. And some of them are that extreme, and some of them are something that happened when they were young that they did to someone else that they were shamed for, that was an innocent child, whatever it is — the whole range of that — to then be so ashamed that you don’t tell anyone.
Rick Broniec (21:08)
And I’ve been there too. All those things you mentioned have happened to me too. So —
Shana James (21:12)
Yeah, yeah.
Rick Broniec (21:14)
At the end of that time together, my dad, the next morning actually, my dad said, “Wow, that was amazing. I feel so much better, Rick. Thank you.” I mean, again, tears from just the closeness that we felt. And said, “And I want you to commit to not tell anybody the story while I’m still alive.” Just as you said, too much shame. I said, “Dad, your story is safe with me.”
Little did I know that he was going to pass away just two months later.
Shana James (21:42)
Are you serious?
Rick Broniec (21:43)
He died of heart failure, Shana. I really believe his heart couldn’t hold that story in anymore.
Shana James (21:47)
Yeah. Yeah.
Rick Broniec (21:48)
And I’d asked him to come do some men’s work with me, some personal growth work. And he thought about it for about a month. And he wrote me a letter that I still have that I pull out every once in a while and unfold and have a good cry.
It basically said, “Thank you for this time together. You’ve become a remarkable son and father and man. I see you growing. I’m proud of you.”
I thought about your invitation to start doing some men’s work and maybe heal some of this. And he said, “At my age, it’s just too painful to even bring these stories up, and I’m gonna decline.”
But at least he took the time to think about it and write me a letter. It was just very, very —
Shana James (22:23)
Yeah, he sounds so thoughtful.
Rick Broniec (22:27)
Very moving. And then it’s about a month after that, the day after Christmas actually, in 1991, my dad passed, just a few days before his sixtieth birthday.
Shana James (22:38)
I’m so sorry. And what an honor, like you said, to be able to —
Rick Broniec (22:42)
Yes.
Shana James (22:43)
hold your father in this moment of him sharing something he’s never told, so, so painful and so devastating.
Rick Broniec (22:52)
I felt so, so very, very honored that he trusted me enough with that story. I believe that he did a lot of healing just in the few months after our relationship got even closer.
Shana James (23:02)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Rick Broniec (23:04)
But with six kids and at that time probably ten grandkids, he was busy, and we didn’t have a lot of time to —
physically, and we were three hours apart by —
But yeah.
Shana James (23:15)
Yeah.
And I think about, so we’ve got the father wound and the connection with the father, and some men never get to have a conversation like that. Then I bring it back to their romantic partners. And those kind of conversations are also incredibly profound to have —
Rick Broniec (23:34)
Yes, totally.
Shana James (23:35)
with a partner and also, again, some of the most vulnerable because you are loved by this person, and it’s precious, and you don’t want that to go away.
Rick Broniec (23:45)
Right.
Shana James (23:46)
Which makes it more terrifying to open up sometimes.
Rick Broniec (23:51)
Because I judge all those things about me, so I assume that she’s gonna judge — or he, if you’re a gay man — that they’re —
Shana James (23:57)
Yeah.
Rick Broniec (23:58)
gonna judge me for having those experiences or beliefs, stories, whatever it is. You’re absolutely right. And it is really scary. And on the other side of that fear can be amazing ecstasy, amazing connection. I’ve had the privilege of having that with my wife, Michelle.
And we premised our relationship right from the get-go on being absolutely a hundred percent honest with each other. That was really scary, even for me, who had done so much work previous to getting with her. We’ve only been together for about 10 years, married for two and a half, and to have her be absolutely true to her word — it’s open, completely nonjudgmental, and we help each other heal in ways that just boggle my mind. Stuff that I’m doing —
Shana James (24:47)
Mind-blowing.
Rick Broniec (24:48)
my whole life.
Shana James (24:49)
So, okay, so just to go a little deeper into this, you committed —
Rick Broniec (24:53)
Mm-hmm.
Shana James (24:54)
to be totally honest with each other. And was there also a commitment, like you said, to be nonjudgmental, to be loving, to hear these painful things with, let’s say, through the eyes of love, or —
Rick Broniec (25:07)
Right. She had done enough of her own work that anything, any story I would bring up, like, “Yeah, that’s — it’s okay. I love you anyhow.”
It wasn’t pushing up against her in a way that was hurtful. And she’s an abuse survivor, what a surprise, right?
Anyhow, another tenet we built our relationship on was ethical non-monogamy. And that was something that I particularly was interested in, not because I wanted to have a lot of partners or anything like that, because part of the story that I carry, Shana, and I think a lot of men do, is that when you get married with somebody, at some level you own them.
Men, whether they can speak it or not, they behave as if. And I was behaving as if. And so my previous divorces — I had two divorces — eviscerated me because both women went behind my back, had affairs, and did other things that I wasn’t aware of. And it was incredibly painful. So —
Shana James (26:11)
Yeah. Yeah.
Rick Broniec (26:14)
you know, we decided we’re gonna try this, and it was scary as hell.
Shana James (26:18)
Yeah. Yeah.
Rick Broniec (26:20)
And it erased from me that whole story about ownership, that whole story that somehow I have to provide everything she needs as a woman. It’s ridiculous to think one man can do that. Emotionally —
Shana James (26:33)
Yeah. Yes.
Rick Broniec (26:35)
physically, spiritually, sexually, everywhere. I mean, we have a lot that we share in common. And there’s some things that I can’t supply for her —
and that she can get from other places. And I want that for her. I want her to be happy, fulfilled —
Shana James (26:47)
Right, right. Yeah.
Rick Broniec (26:49)
and all of that.
Shana James (26:50)
You know, ethical non-monogamy is a totally valid option for some people who — in my experience, it takes a lot of communication and maturity and emotional intelligence. Not everybody’s ready for that.
Also, you know, when I think about the men who listen to this, to go home to a partner and ask for that, it’s a big step. So —
Rick Broniec (27:14)
It’s a big shot.
Yeah. Yeah.
Shana James (27:15)
Yeah.
So, also looking for those who aren’t gonna make that move. I really love that commitment to honesty. But even before that, how do we [create] such a way where we can hold each other’s wounds and pains and not then create some sort of story like, you know, you’re a man, you’re supposed to be my rock. So if you get vulnerable or you feel emotions, I’m judging that you’re no longer useful or you’re no longer manly.
Like, it’s a bunch of bullshit. And same the other way, with women, as they open up and they get more emotional, how do we not have them called overly sensitive or high-maintenance or demanding or any of those kinds of things too?
Rick Broniec (28:04)
All the labels that are put on them, and by the way, all those labels are associated with the feminine side. The feminine is seen as a pejorative thing in terms of how men identify so often. And that is obnoxious to me too. It’s just a continuation of the patriarchy and the sexism that is so rampant in our world.
So, to answer your question, it starts with, what a surprise, learning to love oneself first. Learning to be —
Shana James (28:33)
Yes, of course.
Rick Broniec (28:34)
gentle with one’s own story, one’s own wounds, one’s own experiences. Oftentimes we need to change those stories, change the beliefs about the stories. And the more I do that, the deeper degree that I do that, Shana, the more I’m able to connect with my partner on an intimate level that is so fulfilling and amazing.
Shana James (28:56)
Amazing.
Rick Broniec (28:59)
And we also made a commitment to check in regularly because we look at our relationship as a third entity. You know, there’s she, there’s me, and then there’s the relationship.
How do we nurture that? One way is about once a month we get together and we spend maybe an hour talking about what’s really working in this relationship and what could be even better.
Shana James (29:17)
Yeah. Yeah.
Rick Broniec (29:19)
And that is so sweet. By the end of that, we’re both in tears, we’re both even deeper in love. And we’re also course-correcting if there’s something not working. And it could be something as simple as, “You haven’t been helpful with the dishes lately,” or it could be something sexual.
Shana James (29:37)
And —
I imagine, thinking about some of the clients who I’ve worked with, there can be some defensiveness or some, “I don’t feel understood,” “I don’t feel appreciated” in those conversations. How do you two navigate that? Or do you not have to because of the internal work that you’ve done?
Rick Broniec (29:56)
Well, the internal work we’ve both done over many, many years has been hugely helpful to that. But there’s times when we get stuck, and then we go see a really great therapist.
Because even with all the tools we have, we still can get stuck. It doesn’t happen very often, but when it does, we know where we can go to get the support that we need to get back on track.
Shana James (30:14)
Yeah. Is there — is there anything you could say personally? And I’m happy to share too, so it doesn’t feel like it’s all on you. But is there anything that you’ve found that helps you with the parts of you that may get defensive or may see the “Yeah, but you do this”? Like, just for you personally, what helps you?
Rick Broniec (30:35)
Well, yeah, the defensiveness is not attractive and it’s not helpful. I would say it almost never happens with Michelle. If it happens, it happens with other people, you know, the guys attacking me for being too woke or whatever.
Again, it’s the internal work of loving this man. You know, once that’s done, then everything else is gravy. I mean, it’s so much easier to relate to somebody. Like when you and I first met, we had this instant connection.
Shana James (31:02)
I think it’s based in that. We can feel other people who have the freedom and the vitality and the soul. Yeah, of —
Rick Broniec (31:09)
Question. Yeah. Yeah.
Shana James (31:11)
of being able to be open and connected beyond those defenses, but not in a false way and not in an assumptive way. It’s like to just show up fully in the moment.
Rick Broniec (31:25)
Totally, totally. And what a gift that is to be able to have that level of intimacy almost instantaneously. It’s very sweet, and I have that in lots of places in my life. And —
Shana James (31:37)
Which says something too, because you’re a powerful man. Do you walk around in the world with any fear of that? A lot of men these days, as Me Too happened, and I could get sidelined for this. How do you navigate that?
Rick Broniec (31:52)
Well, I mean, that’s again another long question, because I have been falsely accused of some things in the past. And once those accusations are out, there’s not much you can do about it. You can’t prove you didn’t do something, right?
So that’s been extremely painful and, you know, a great important part of my healing. What a surprise. My parents hid their woundedness, so I get the opportunity to work that out — the family system of sexual abuse and also alcoholism and other things that ran in my family.
So, I mean, that’s the work: to continuously, continuously peel the layers of false narrative that I carry about myself and about my sexuality —
Shana James (32:37)
About yourself. Mm-hmm.
Rick Broniec (32:40)
about my spirituality, about what’s okay and what’s not, about —
Shana James (32:43)
Mm-hmm.
Rick Broniec (32:44)
what I can share and what I can’t.
And being an open book is so much easier. I don’t have to remember the lies I’m telling —
Shana James (32:51)
Right.
Rick Broniec (32:53)
you. The answer is, I don’t have much fear. Of course —
Shana James (32:56)
Yeah.
Rick Broniec (32:56)
I’m in a male body, and that makes a difference.
Shana James (33:00)
Mm-hmm.
Rick Broniec (33:00)
And I’m older and I’m semi-retired, so I don’t have to worry about anybody else regarding my income or anything like that. So I don’t have that fear very often.
Depends upon the venue I’m in. If I’m in a venue where there’s lots of folks that tend to be shut down, especially men, then I’m careful about what I say and what I don’t say. But I don’t walk around in a lot of fear.
Shana James (33:22)
Yeah. Yeah. Which is amazing. I think that, again, there’s the belief in yourself, the knowing yourself beyond those stories, the trust that you build in yourself really then allows for less fear of how you interact in the world. Yeah.
Rick Broniec (33:39)
Exactly. And it’s such a gift. I mean, I feel — and I’ll bring tears to my eyes too — I feel so gifted in my life.
So, you know, there’s been so many things that have come my way: spiritual teachers, Mankind Project, sexual healing workshops, things like that that have just transformed me. And what a gift. I mean, to be where I am right now, just really —
happy with the way things are, enjoy —
Shana James (34:07)
Aww.
Rick Broniec (34:07)
most of the time.
Shana James (34:09)
I’m so happy. I’m so happy to hear that. And for men who are listening, or people who are listening, to know that there are these ways to get support, that there are sexual healing workshops, that there are workshops for whatever gender you identify with, that there are mixed-gender workshops to really work through intimacy struggles.
I mean, there are so many resources these days that nobody has to —
suffer this alone, but it does take what we talked about in the beginning, is that willingness to risk the vulnerability.
Rick Broniec (34:42)
Right.
That’s what it takes. And I’m gonna say to the men in your audience: take the risk, take the opportunity, go to a men’s training, go to a tantra training, go someplace where you can be real, where you can start talking about the truth of who you are or discovering the truth of who you are, and be vulnerable because it will pay off, I promise you.
Shana James (35:05)
Yeah. Amazing. Is there any last thing you want to leave people with? I know from the decades you’ve been doing this, this is just a little drop in the ocean, but what do you feel called to leave people with?
Rick Broniec (35:18)
Mm, mm, mm. Well, I think I’ve already said it, I’ll repeat it. There is healing for men. There is the opportunity, the help, and the support for men to become more intimate with themselves and therefore more intimate with a partner.
You don’t have to be alone. You don’t have to be isolated. There’s a huge loving world out there. Knock on the door, take advantage of the opportunity.
Shana James (35:44)
Thank you. Thank you so much for having this conversation and for being willing to go first and be vulnerable.
Rick Broniec (35:53)
You’re welcome, Shana. It’s a joy. It’s a joy always to be with you, to work with you. I appreciate you very much.
Shana James (36:00)
Thank you.
Rick Broniec (36:01)
Okay.
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