A big reason many relationships fall apart is because most couples don’t make clear, conscious agreements. In this episode, I talk with Krista and Will VanderVeer (hosts of The Art of We podcast) about how relationship agreements can profoundly deepen intimacy, support emotional repair, and help couples navigate the ups and downs of love with more grace and clarity.
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Relationship Agreements: The Key to a Stronger Partnership: Show Notes
After 20 years of coaching couples, I’ve noticed something surprising: most couples don’t make conscious agreements about how they want to engage in their relationship — even though those who do are far more likely to stay connected and grow together through life’s hardest moments.
Some couples exchange vows at the altar, or talk logistics — who’s picking up the groceries, managing the finances, or handling bedtime — but real, conscious agreements — the kind that foster connection, deepen intimacy, and guide you through the hard moments, are shockingly rare.
And the cost of that? Misunderstandings that spiral into disconnection, unspoken expectations, and resentments that build quietly over time.
In this week’s episode of Practicing Love, I talk with Krista and Will Van Derveer — hosts of The Art of We podcast — about why relationship agreements are the foundation of lasting, loving partnerships.
We explore:
- How to create conscious agreements that evolve with you
- Why healing and intimacy grow in relationships where there is a mutual purpose
- What it means to listen generously — and why it changes a relationship more than you’d imagine
- How to navigate rupture and repair so conflicts bring you closer
- The difference between “I” and “We” space (and when and how to honor each)
Krista and Will share how their own journey — and their shared commitment to risk everything for love — led them to co-create a beautiful, grounded, and inspiring partnership. It’s not that they don’t struggle! When they do, they have the support of their agreements to hold them, and to remind them of how to best love each other.
Whether you’re in a relationship or preparing for one, this episode will help you understand the foundations of building a conscious connection.
To be clear, agreements aren’t about control — they’re about clarity and commitment. They help you feel safer to be your full, honest self, and create a better understanding of how to meet your and another’s needs.
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Connect with Krista and Will
Bio:
Hosts of The Art of We podcast, relationship coaches, business partners, and life partners, Krista and Will specialize in guiding couples to build secure, purpose-driven partnerships. With decades of experience in leadership, executive consulting, and integrative mental health, they help teams and couples alike leverage the strength of “We” to foster personal growth, partnership resilience, and meaningful contribution to the world.
Krista brings over 20 years of coaching women leaders, while Will integrates neuroscience and mental wellness into their relational framework. Together, they created The Art of We to model how a shared North Star, real agreements, and compassionate communication can transform a relationship into a force for positive impact.
Transcript:
Shana James (00:04):
Hello and welcome to this episode of Practicing Love: How to Have the Best Love and Sex of Your Life After 40. I’m thrilled to be here today with an amazing couple—Krista Van Derveer and Will—who are the hosts of the podcast The Art of We. I highly recommend checking out their podcast after this one. Krista and I recently recorded an episode together that was exciting and fun, so definitely give that a listen.
I met Krista over a decade ago in the conscious communication and authentic relating world—we’ve facilitated together—and then Will, you came into Krista’s life. I’ve witnessed how the two of you have been practicing together over the past decade, and I’m so inspired by your relationship.
You have a really powerful—dare I say unique—way of engaging in a relationship through the practice of agreements, and I’m excited for you to talk about how this is a key to a stronger partnership.
I often bring this into my client sessions, and we usually have to go meta or rewind, because most couples haven’t created agreements about how they treat or speak to one another. I don’t think I’ve ever had anyone say, “Yes, we already have those agreements.”
What you’re doing makes a profound impact in relationships. I’m excited to talk about it, as well as some of the challenges that led you to create your own version of agreements. Thank you so much for being here.
Krista Van Derveer (01:49):
Thanks for having us, Shana.
Will (01:53):
Yeah, thank you, Shana. Great to see you again.
Shana James (01:55):
You too. I’d love to start with a little context. Maybe Krista, you can go first—can you share something about your relationship, or anything in your personal history that feels important to this conversation?
Krista Van Derveer (02:16):
Sure. In this current season of our relationship, I’m feeling really excited about where we are. We’ve gone through some big tests—not only as a couple, but also as collaborators.
had to ask ourselves: How are we going to show up for this? How are we going to make it through?
We met in 2017—so it’s been eight years—and we’ve been married for almost six. Some people see us as a newer couple, others don’t. But what feels really different in this relationship, compared to past ones, is how solid it is. Rock solid. I would attribute that to two things.
First, we’re very clear on why we’re in partnership together. We’re up to something bigger than just “being in love.” And second, we’ve created agreements that help us navigate conflict, stay connected, and stay aligned with our shared purpose. So, I’m proud of us right now.
Shana James (03:41):
Beautiful. I’m excited to dive into that more after we hear from Will—because knowing why you’re in a relationship is something a lot of couples don’t consider. And of course these relationship agreements are a main part of our conversation today.
Will (03:56):
Yeah, that was actually a new concept for me when I met Krista. On our very first date—November 2017—we closed down the restaurant after a four-hour conversation about the need for partnerships that are about more than just a private love bubble.
It made sense to both of us that if you’re going to have big goals and create impact in the world, you’d need a strong set of agreements to help you move forward—and repair ruptures along the way.
The question, “What are you up to together as a couple?” often gets blank stares, but for us, it became foundational.
Shana James (04:53):
I love picturing the two of you in that restaurant, having that deep conversation and feeling so met by each other. It’s beautiful—because I know you’ve both had high bars for who you would partner with. I love seeing that you found each other.
Will (05:24):
Thank you. And yes, our agreements really flow from the clarity we have about what we’re up to together in the world. They go hand-in-hand.
Shana James (05:38):
That’s such an important point—agreements don’t just come out of nowhere. They arise from knowing your shared purpose. I often ask couples on the podcast, “What’s something you’ve struggled with that you’re now practicing?” Because this isn’t about arriving at some final, perfect version of love.
This is a practice. And it’s important for people to hear that—even those of us who lead, teach, and facilitate conscious communication—still struggle at times.
Krista Van Derveer (06:22):
Yes! [laughs]
Shana James (06:38):
I appreciate that you have already named having moments where you’ve asked, “How are we going to get through this?” It’s not always easy.
Krista Van Derveer (06:59):
Totally. And I would say—Will, you can tell me if you agree—I feel like we’re in that kind of season right now. Not in terms of our relationship itself; our relationship feels solid. But life is throwing a lot at us, and it’s hard.
If we weren’t committed to staying connected, I think I’d be tempted to go into my “I space” and just try to handle everything myself. But we’ve made a commitment to stay connected, even when stress is high—and that can be hard.
Shana James (07:33):
Can you say more about “I space” versus the “We space”? Some people may not be familiar with that language.
Krista Van Derveer (07:40):
Sure. On The Art of We podcast, we often talk about the “We” as its own entity. It includes both of us, but it also transcends both of us. When we’re in connection with the we, we’re tending to the relationship itself—not just to our individual needs.
So for example, in an “I space,” I might be focused on what I need in this moment. In a “We space,” I’m also holding the question: What do we need right now?
An “I space” might sound like, “Here’s where I’m right and you’re wrong,” whereas the “We space” says, “Okay, we clearly have differences—how do we hold them together and find a way through?”
Shana James (08:34):
Yes. And I imagine that “I space” can also look like pulling away—just trying to handle something on your own.
Krista Van Derveer (08:46):
Exactly. That’s very well said.
Shana James (08:48):
Anything you’d add to that, Will?
Will (08:52):
Yeah—I’ll try to be brief! [laughs] I love how attachment theory helps frame this. Going inward—what’s called auto-regulation—can be really valuable. At certain developmental stages, it’s essential to learn how to soothe ourselves and be with our own discomfort.
But there’s another level. And this isn’t just my idea—many researchers point to this: the next milestone is inter-regulation. That’s where I can also learn how to lean on my partner to co-regulate.
So at any given moment, hopefully one of us is more regulated. And that person can help anchor the other. Of course, there are moments where neither of us is regulated, and those are the tough ones! [laughs]
Shana James (10:09):
Those “no adults in the room” moments. Yes! And that’s where relationship agreements come in!
Will (10:18)
Yes and that’s where maybe just a moment of going inside—practicing mindfulness, presence, compassion for ourselves—might actually increase our capacity to show up for our partner.
Ideally, in healthier childhood environments, you’d learn that kind of interpersonal regulation with your caregivers. But honestly, I’ve never met anyone who had that.
Shana (10:57)
I just had a moment yesterday during some bodywork with this miracle worker. I was in tears, realizing that I’ve been trying to trust that everything’s going to be okay—but there’s no part of my lineage that really got trust. So there was no one to co-regulate with.
I mean, we have Holocaust survivors in our family, so when I think about co-regulation with my parents—that never happened. Now I’m learning how to regulate myself. My partner and I are practicing this too – how to rely on each other and be generous, offering regulation rather than reacting or spiraling into implosion.
Will (11:58)
Yeah, we’ve all been there. Beautiful.
Krista (12:00)
It’s so hard, yeah.
Shana (12:01)
Yeah. It’s sad but true—very few people I’ve met felt truly loved, supported, or regulated as kids.
Do you know Susan Campbell? She wrote Getting Real and The 5-Minute Relationship Repair. She’s amazing—she’s in her 80s and has written many books.
Krista (12:21)
Yeah, I have that book by my bed. I love it.
Shana (12:28)
I had a conversation with her once, and she’s the only person I’ve talked to who said, “Yeah, I felt totally loved as a child.” She didn’t have the wounds many of us carry. And I thought, wow—that’s such a blessing. And maybe it’s part of why she can be so supportive of others.
Will (12:52)
Yeah. And the good news is, this is learnable. We can learn to co-regulate and heal in adulthood—if we have a willing and able dance partner. That’s hopeful, at least in my world.
Shana (13:15)
Yes. The “willing and able” part is crucial. I know so many people who want to grow, but their partner isn’t willing—and that’s really hard to make work.
Will (13:29)
100%. It goes back to: What are you up to as a couple?
One of our early commitments is: We’re here to heal every injury from the past—together.
That changes the whole frame. It’s no longer, “Will is so messed up, why can’t he just get his act together?” It becomes, “There are wounds that need care.” And we’ve committed to that process.
Shana (14:04)
Wow. I’m in awe of that. That you made healing each other’s wounds a purpose of your relationship.
Because, yes—wounds are formed in relationship, and they’re healed in relationship. So instead of blame and shame, there’s compassion and understanding.
Krista (14:46)
Right. In past relationships, when we didn’t have these kinds of agreements, I would question compatibility.
I’d think, “This is just how he is—can I live with that?” Rather than, “Maybe there’s something deeper we can explore together—if he’s willing.”
I’ve got younger parts of me that need support—not to be codependent, but these parts still need care. And like you said, Shana, we heal in relationship. So if we’re not doing that with our partner, then who are we doing it with?
Shana (15:39)
I can imagine someone listening and thinking, “Yeah!” Because while we do get support from friends, girlfriends, guy friends… a lot of people aren’t actually having healing conversations there either.
What you’re talking about—making healing a big part of relationship—isn’t in the mainstream, but it should be.
Krista (16:15)
One thing we also talk about is being for each other’s greatest success and fullest expression—even when it’s scary. Early on, Will was the more external-facing one. He had more visibility. I was more internal-facing, and that intimidated me.
I remember thinking, “If I support your fullest expression, what if it gets so big that you don’t need me anymore?” But one of our earliest agreements, even on our first date—after Will had just come out of a 20-year marriage and I had lost a partner to sudden death—was: We’re going to risk everything for love.
We weren’t willing to compromise ourselves. We were like: “Let’s either have the most extraordinary relationship, or not do it at all.” That meant bringing all of ourselves—our wounds, our joys—and seeing how we could meet that together.
Shana (17:49)
Every word out of your mouth is, Wow. That’s profound—not just the agreements, but the purpose, and the willingness to risk everything for love.
That’s just not part of the common conversation around relationships.
Will (18:09)
There’s another layer here that I find really important. I come from a therapy background—I’ve been a therapist—and one thing I didn’t ask clients enough was: Why heal? Why deal with your wounds? For what purpose?
Because it can become self-referential—or even solipsistic—when healing is just for healing’s sake. But when there’s a bigger purpose—like “I want to show up for my kids,” or “I want to be of service in the world”—that pulls you forward.
For me, when I met Krista, I knew we wanted to put our energy into making a meaningful impact in the world. So healing wasn’t just for us—it was so we could express our gifts, use our privilege, and give back. That made the work worth doing.
And that’s why I need to do this work—because I know I’m limiting my capacity to be of service in the world if my injuries are still in the way.
Shana James (19:39)
To be of service, ye. Beautiful. It can become very insular and self-referential if we’re just healing for our own sake. But within the context of a bigger purpose—having a better impact on the world, being in service of more love—that’s really inspiring.
The two of you are saying things and you’re breaking my brain open—we could talk for a year about that. It’s so deep.
Okay, one thing I want to go back to…
So many people, when they’re thinking about dating—so many of the clients I’ve had—there’s this worry:
“Can I really ask that question?”
“Can I really say that on the first date?”
And I say: Yes, you can. Don’t waste time in the shallow waters. Why bother? Unless you’re inspired by that. I’m not inspired by that. I know you two aren’t inspired by that.
So I’m curious—how did you have the courage to just lay it all on the table like this? Because that’s not how most people start.
Krista Van Derveer (21:08)
Yeah, it’s such a great question. I’ll dive in and then you can go, Will—how does that sound?
For me, I had the benefit of being in a place where I was like: If I can’t have the kind of relationship I want, I don’t want a relationship.
I wasn’t a beneficiary of Mark’s death—I’m not saying his death was a gift—but I was in a place where I thought: Either it’s going to be freaking amazing, or I’m not going to do it at all.
So I had these internal agreements about how I was going to show up for myself in dating. And if the person I was dating couldn’t be with the truth of what was moving through me, and how I was wanting to show up… then, like you say to your clients, why bother?
Now, there were other times in my life when I wasn’t that way. I was bending and contorting and not being upfront. But there was something really liberating about saying: Here are the five things I’m committing to for myself, and I’m not going to do it differently.
And if I start to do it differently, I’ll catch myself. Because nothing is more important to me than being in an empowered partnership rather than a disempowered one. That was true then—and it still is.
Shana James (22:33)
Brilliant. Yeah. How about you, Will?
Will (22:38)
For me, it was kind of a different path to the same place.
The long relationship I was in—the 20-year marriage Krista mentioned—was with a beautiful soul who had a very Buddhist standpoint on relationships. We had a Buddhist couples therapist, and the approach was:
If you’re feeling something uncomfortable, it’s not your partner’s problem—it’s your problem. Go back to the cushion.
It was very anti-co-regulation. Not a secure-functioning model.
Meanwhile, my two best guy friends were in long-term marriages where they were working their asses off to build that secure functioning we’re talking about. One of them was studying with Stan Tatkin—he’s one of the big proponents of this style of relationship.
So I was reading Stan’s books, watching my friends have these experiences, and I thought: I want that.
I think my ex and our therapist thought it was a fantasy—this idea that people can really depend on each other, trust each other, get soothed by each other.
But I told myself: It might be a fantasy, but I’m going to go for it. I need to find out. There’s no way I’ll feel good about my life if I don’t at least try.
Shana James (24:28)
Amazing.
Krista Van Derveer (24:30)
And Shana, how about you? When you found Marc, what were your intentions?
Shana James (24:37)
Yeah, it was very similar. It was: I’m going to be with someone who elevates my life so that we can both have a bigger impact in the world. So we can learn to love more. So we can discover what love is.
There was never a point where I wanted a relationship that didn’t involve growth. Where I wasn’t becoming my best self. Or where I couldn’t do the work I want to do in the world. I didn’t want to be with someone who didn’t want that too.
You two have more eloquent ways of saying it, but that was the sentiment for me: This has to be a relationship with a purpose. For me, the purpose is often growth. But then that growth allows me to be more in service through my work.
Krista Van Derveer (25:46)
Yeah, I love that. It makes so much sense, knowing you and who you are. I’m so happy you have what you have now with Marc.
Shana James (25:55)
Thank you.
Okay—relationship agreements. Can we go back to that? You might need to fill in some gaps, because I know they’re rooted in purpose, but how do you talk about agreements? How did you create them together? Can you give us some tips or tools for that?
Krista Van Derveer (26:20)
Great. I’ll start.
So, I’d been working for a consulting firm that would go into companies and introduce five “practices”—we called them agreements too. I love the word “practice.” But this company called it the Collaborative Way—it’s how teams would relate and work together.
So that was one influence. Then we also drew on Stan Tatkin’s work, Will’s work, and the values we both brought to the table. It was kind of a mixture of everything we’d found powerful in partnerships, influenced by mentors and our own life experiences.
And then—we had a whole category of agreements created around our wounding.
We’d find ourselves in situations where one or both of us would get activated. And we’d realize: We could actually create an agreement to help heal what’s underneath this.
Shana James (27:32)
So some of the agreements you made proactively, before something would happen—and others came after a challenge, when you thought, “We could create an agreement around this?”
Krista Van Derveer (27:44)
Yep, totally. Am I missing anything, Will?
Will (27:48)
No, I think you covered it well. I was just thinking about the 25th agreement we made the other day, and I can’t remember exactly what it was. But it came after a long stretch—many years.
Shana James (28:00)
I was going to ask how many you have! So there are 25 now?
Krista Van Derveer (28:02)
There had been 24 for, what, seven years? And we were just talking about the 25th, which… I can’t remember either. So it obviously hasn’t stuck yet.
Will (28:12)
[laughs]
Krista Van Derveer (28:18)
It was around mindset. Basically agreeing to view our lives through the lens of: This is for our success. Having a positive, orienting mindset toward the unfolding of our lives.
Shana James (28:39)
Great. “Why is this happening?” Yes—I’m working with that one myself right now.
Will (28:41)
Exactly. [laughs]
Krista Van Derveer (28:47)
Which is the name of this podcast, which I love—Practicing Love. It really is a practice.
Our agreements aren’t about beating each other up when we don’t get it right; they’re about supporting each other to remember how we want to orient. Like, just two hours ago today, I was having a massive breakdown in my office.
Will came in, and you did such an amazing job, Will, of being with me in the way we’re talking about. You could have gotten defensive. You could have stormed out or been rigid.
But instead we’re practicing these agreements, and it’s ongoing. I don’t think we ever truly master them, though some of them have become so ingrained that doing anything different would feel really strange. I’d think, Wow, that’s not how Will usually behaves. I wonder what’s going on for him.
Shana James (29:42)
Yeah, yeah. So Will, when you did that amazing job walking into the office in the midst of Krista’s breakdown, can you share what was happening for you? Some people might not relate to the language of “where were you coming from,” but can you speak to what was happening internally—and also what you did externally?
Will (30:10)
Sure. Just to give a little context: we’ve been doing some restructuring in the organization Krista and I started years ago. She’s been stepping in and taking on tasks that used to be handled by people who aren’t with us anymore. And in doing so, she’s been discovering a lot of chaos where there should be order. It’s incredibly frustrating and hard.
So, in that moment, I was trying to practice this mindset agreement we have—that even difficult moments are on the path to our awakening, our unfolding, or our best expression in the world. But it wasn’t easy.
There was a part of me that wanted to go into shame: This is my fault, or I made her life hard. I found myself in this place I often land, where I’m having a difficult experience and the person in front of me is also having a difficult experience. I have to hold both at once.
Shana James (31:45)
Yes. That straddling—that’s so important.
Will (32:07)
It reminds me of something Milan Kundera wrote. I think it was in a different book than The Unbearable Lightness of Being. He described someone playing chess like Bobby Fischer—simultaneously against a computer and a Russian opponent. That image often comes to mind for me. It’s like I’m playing a game inside myself and outside of myself at the same time.
Shana James (32:32)
Right. They both take a kind of mastery. So how did you stay with Krista’s emotions while you were also struggling inside?
Will (32:38)
It was tough. Especially in the beginning of a relationship, when you don’t really know the person in front of you yet—you don’t know their capacity or where they’re going to go when they’re dysregulated. They might start yelling, blaming, or even walk out and never come back.
Krista Van Derveer (33:15)
Or go away and never come back.
Shana James (33:17)
Right.
Will (33:21)
But as Krista mentioned, even though we haven’t been married six years yet, we’ve had a lot of reps together. So the consistency of showing up for each other is so ingrained that I’m not thinking, This is it. She’s leaving. I’m done. Or I’m leaving.
Shana James (33:58)
Right. That early phase is so vulnerable.
Will (33:59)
It really is.
Shana James (34:02)
And now you have more foundation to stand on, but it’s still not easy, right? I wouldn’t exactly call it compartmentalizing, but there’s a way I know that feeling—of holding my own struggle while also staying present for my partner or my kid. That’s one of the biggest practices for me.
It feels like something happens in my stomach—a grounding beneath all the internal turmoil—while I also listen to what’s happening outside me. It can feel like emotional acrobatics.
Will (34:49)
Yes. Sometimes it helps me to imagine Krista’s hurting part and my own hurting part as members of one larger family. It’s almost like Internal Family Systems (IFS), but including each other’s parts too. We play around with that metaphor sometimes.
Shana James (35:03)
Yeah. I love that. Using Dick Schwartz’s IFS model—yes. It’s like we’re both the parents of all our younger parts.
Will (35:16)
Exactly. It’s not “You go take care of your parts and I’ll take care of mine.” It’s like, all these parts are part of this relationship.
Shana James (35:29)
Right, like you’re each parents of each other’s parts too. That’s beautiful.
Krista Van Derveer (35:35)
Yeah. That’s actually been a key part of our partnership since early on—bringing parts work into the relationship. I’m as responsible for Will’s parts as he is. Not more responsible, not less. That shared ownership has been really helpful.
Shana James (35:56)
I can see that. When I work with clients—or even in my own relationship—I often guide people to look at the person across from them and ask, “Can you see the part that’s hurting?” Can you look underneath the surface reaction to see what’s really going on? That’s often where we find compassion.
Krista Van Derveer (36:26)
Absolutely. And when our partner has the skill to access that vulnerability—when they can show the part that’s in pain instead of just yelling—it makes a difference.
Like if I’d had the capacity in that moment to drop in and say, “I’m scared. I don’t know what to do. I feel overwhelmed,” instead of just being the loud, upset voice in my office—I imagine it would have been easier for you, Will, to stay with me.
Will (37:07)
Definitely. That would’ve made it easier. But you rarely get that overwhelmed. If that were your usual way of responding, it’d be a different scenario. But because it’s an outlier for you, it gives me more room to hold it.
Shana James (37:20)
Right. That’s good context.
When we trust our partner is trying to stay grounded, to be present, to stay connected—even if they don’t get it right every time—it builds compassion. Then when one of us loses it, there’s more love available.
Krista Van Derveer (38:06)
And that’s where I really wanna take another plug and stand for agreements. Because like any kind of new relationship, we come in with a habitual way of being in relationship that we may or may not be aware of, but it was taught by our parents, it was taught by our culture, it was taught by our friendships growing up, that the person across from us has been taught something likely very different than our way of doing things or addressing things or being.
And then especially you add on top of that when shit hits the fan, then it’s really hard to work with each other. But if we have these agreements with each other, like one of my favorites because it’s been such a staple in our partnership has been the agreement to abundantly repair.
Shana James (38:51)
Mm-hmm.
Krista Van Derveer (38:57)
And what that means to us is that when there’s a disconnection or a conflict that we are committing to repair abundantly. And abundantly means that we’re staying in the conversation and working it out until…for me, what it means is I have a body shift and a body sense of I actually want—my body wants—to get closer to Will’s body.
Shana James (39:21)
Uh-huh. Versus that feeling of wanting to pull away.
Krista Van Derveer (39:25)
Yes versus pushing away or even being like, “Okay, fine, we took care of it, it’s fine,” and we go our separate ways. Like it’s not even neutral, but it’s a positive. And we also know that for us, for every rupture there is, there’s so much more to learn and that we’re stronger as a couple when we make it through the rupture. So the agreement to abundantly repair—like if I was screaming in my office today, which I was…
And you didn’t have the context, Will, of “we’re gonna make it through this because that’s what we do,” and we both agreed to it before we got triggered, then it could be a really scary moment for anybody inside a partnership.
Shana James (40:07)
Yeah, for sure.
Krista Van Derveer (40:09)
Yeah, so thanks for listening.
Shana James (40:10)
Do you have a favorite agreement, Will, as well? Or one of your favorites?
Will (40:14)
Well, that might be my favorite one too. It’s a little boring to copycat Krista on that, but it might be worth underlining that we really look at these ruptures as reps in the gym where you’re building the muscle of security with each other. And you can’t get that—you can’t earn that security—without the rupture.
Shana James (40:44)
It’s true.
Will (40:45)
So many of us—especially, this was kind of my environment as a child—you’re white-knuckling to try to not lose attunement or connection or fun or whatever’s happening in the family, because repair’s not gonna happen or nobody knows how to do it. And so I think unfortunately a lot of people grow up thinking… just not having enough exposure to what repair really feels like.
And so you lose that opportunity and you end up kind of living in fear that there’s going to be a big rupture that can’t be repaired.
One of the important parts is to have a mutual agreement about what it means.
Shana James (41:32)
Yes! Okay, so I’d love to talk a little bit about, for those who are listening to this and they’re thinking, yes, we want to create agreements. What do you suggest? How do they start?
Do you track them? Do you write them down? I imagine you can’t just keep them in your head because otherwise there’s one person’s perspective versus…
Will (41:58)
Because I could say orange and you could say orange, but then we come together and we have different definitions of orange. So to really hash out like what does this mean to us —mutual understanding and mutual agreement.
But then also, the other thing I would say is there were some really key ones, I would say, for our partnership that I would highly suggest that have been inspired by other people—we didn’t create them—and we have a free download for anybody who wants it. That’s our top 10 agreements.
And most of the ones that are fundamental are in there. They’re as easy, but not often practiced, as like “listening generously.” Often we don’t really practice listening generously, and often we don’t even really know what that means to each other. And so that was one thought that I had. What would you add to that?
Krista spoke to this a little bit earlier—the other thing to do is to create agreements that are tailored specifically to our individual developmental history or injuries. For example, I used to come home from school and my mom was very depressed and she was in her room and I didn’t know if anyone was home. I had the feeling like I was a burden…
…because she was already burdened, and I didn’t want to be more of a burden. And so it really helps me to have an agreement that takes the form of: we do hellos and goodbyes really well—with a lot of generosity. And it also fit well for you, Krista, because of the sudden death of your partner. That created a lot of worry about…
Shana James (43:42)
I love that. Right. What if I don’t see you again? What if this is the last time?
Will (43:56)
Yeah, exactly. So looking at like where in your partnership do you have those moments of wound or trigger? And what do you both need in that moment? That’s another area to look at.
Shana James (44:12)
That’s a beautiful way to put it, right? Where do you not feel understood or where do you not feel safe or what are those wounds that are showing up in the current moment in the relationship? Great place to create relationship agreements.
Will (44:26)
Yeah. In the beginning, did we write them down? I’m trying to think…
They got written down and in stone, so to speak, when we started to create our vows for our marriage, when we were getting ready to get married. And there were 24 of them. That’s what we spoke at our wedding. So it’s kind of cool to have a 25th come in.
Shana James (44:49)
Wow. When you got married, you had 24. So this new 25th. That’s amazing.
Will (45:04)
Yeah. Yeah. It seems like—we were talking a little bit about this before we hit the record button, you know, when we were talking before with you—but there’s this kind of heightened need for mindset right now and practicing being grounded in our bodies and being present. There’s just so much intensity and chaos and brutality going on. So we just didn’t…
We didn’t realize—I mean, it was in the background—but it wasn’t a called-out, explicit agreement until it was. So it’s also a living document. It’s a thing we refer back to and update.
Shana James (45:46)
Yes, I talk sometimes with people about something like a user guide—like how do you know what your partner needs in a specific moment? You know, what really helps if they’re feeling down or they’re feeling stressed?
And all of these ways of getting to know each other and tracking: what’s that cycle where we go down? Can we track the first moment of that and how I’m seeing you and what I think you’re doing to me, and all of those things.
And so I love that this form of agreements is a living document, and that you’re working with it and iterating and discovering, right? And if one doesn’t work or if there’s a problem or if someone, you know, can’t quite get with the program in a way, then you’re working with that.
Will (46:39)
Yeah, usually that means that we’re not actually agreeing to that agreement—when somebody’s like…
Shana James (46:45)
Interesting.
Will (46:46)
…missing it a lot or like, you know, there’s resistance that we haven’t actually addressed that’s in the way of us actually living into it, which is also really good information for us.
Shana James (46:51)
Right. Yes, very good information. And then I also love that when you have this document, it’s not like one person policing the other. It’s more, hey, this is what we—right? The art of we—this is what we agreed…
Will (47:12.64)
Right, absolutely. And it comes in handy in the midst of a conflict because like, for example, I remember one time in the kitchen, you know, we were having a big fight and I said to Krista, you know, I’m usually you listen very generously and I’m not getting the same kind of generous listening today. And that in —
Shana James (47:31.855)
That’s a very kind way to say it.
Will (47:35.850)
It is very kind, I agree. And it kind of stops me in my tracks and like, oh, you’re right, I’m not doing that. What’s going on with me?
Shana James (47:44.077)
Right. Versus if he had shamed you and been like, You’re not listening to me. What’s your problem? That’s not inspiring.
Shana James (47:54.585)
Right.
Okay, I was already sold before we started, and now even more sold on how important and how profound this can be for relationships. Maybe you could each, as we’re wrapping up, think of something, if there’s anything that you haven’t yet said that you want people to know or something you think would be helpful, what would it be? And do you want to start, Will?
Will (48:05.839)
I like to remind people that — I mean, my own journey and relationship tells me that when you shoot for the stars — it sounds kind of corny to say that — but when you commit to following the dream of the hope that you can create the kind of relationship that really does support what we’re talking about today, that you can do it. I think so many people live in the not knowing that that possibility is real and that it’s a matter of creating it as opposed to hoping that, you know, if you just find the right person, it’ll happen. It’s like you have to create it with a co-creator.
Shana James (49:11.095)
Yes. Yes. Thank you.
Krista (49:16.651)
I love that answer so much. It’s really sweet.
Yeah, I guess it would just be like, What are you willing to risk to get what you really stand for in partnership? And I think we’re all at different points of risk in our lives. Like some of us are like ready to risk everything and some of us are like, yeah, I’m not so much willing to risk that right now. And I think the whole continuum of that is perfect and okay.
I think it’s a matter of really being in a relationship with it. So we’re making conscious choices. And inside of that, I think then we can make more decisions when we’re more self-aware about how we’re relating to what we’re willing to do inside of partnership. So I would bring that piece too.
Shana James (50:13.325)
Awesome, thank you. Thank you so much for being a gorgeous example of love and conscious love, conscious relating. I’ve been asking myself the question recently, What would love do? And it just feels like it, yeah, like it guides my heart.
And I often suggest when I’m working with people to ask their partner, What would have you feel more loved right now? How can I love you better?
Will (50:22.287)
I love that.
Shana James (50:43.695)
And I feel like you two are such examples of that. And you know, you’re not sugarcoating it by saying like, We do this all the time and it’s easy. You’re honest and real.
Will (50:44.943)
Yeah, I mean, I think that’s the other thing is that this kind of partnership isn’t a walk in the park. It’s a real commitment and we work hard at it and it’s very rewarding.
Shana James (51:08.399)
Yes. Right. It’s the kind of work that has the reward versus the kind of work that just drives you into the ground and there’s nothing that you gain from it.
Will (51:14.831)
Yes, and if that’s happening, then you might want to just question what kind of partnership you’re in. And look at that.
Shana James (51:24.974)
Okay, where can people get your list of the top 10 agreements?
Will (51:34.691)
They can go to our website, which is KristaVanDerveer.com.
Shana James (51:42.639)
Thank you so much for being here.
Will (51:43.437)
Yeah. Shana, you are such an example of practicing love and it’s so lovely to be here with you and to be in this space and conversation with you. And I’m just looking forward to so many more and thank you for showing us how to show up and how to practice love. We really appreciate it. Thank you so much.
Shana James (51:59.951)
Thank you.
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