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#67: The Sex You Actually Want: Beyond Scripts, Shame and Expectations (With Deborah Kat)

 

In this episode of Practicing Love, I talk with Deborah Kat, relationship and sex expert, Tantra teacher, host of The Better Sex Podcast, and former professional Dominatrix.

 

 

The Sex You Actually Want: Beyond Scripts, Shame and Expectations: Show Notes

 

Having great sex is not about knowing the “right” things to do.

It’s about discovering what actually feels good and meaningful to you.

The best question to ask yourself is: Are you having the sex you actually want?

In this episode of Practicing Love, I talk with Deborah Kat, relationship and sex expert, Tantra teacher, host of The Better Sex Podcast, and former professional Dominatrix.

We get into what actually makes sex great, and why so many of us aren’t satisfied with the script we were given about what sex is “supposed to look like.”

Deborah talks about the importance of aliveness over performance, and why great sex isn’t about reaching a particular outcome. It can change, evolve, surprise you, and be completely different from one time to the next.

We talk about:

 

Many of my clients actually know what they want to say, but they’re afraid to say it. One of my favorite themes in this conversation is that revealing more of yourself creates more intimacy, even though it feels risky. You don’t have to say the “right thing.” It’s more about the vulnerable thing.

The more honestly we discover what we want, communicate it, stay curious, and create safety for each other, the more room there is for pleasure, connection and surprise.

Better sex isn’t about becoming better at performing sex.

It’s about being truly yourself while you’re having it, so you can receive and enjoy it more.

Links:

Connect with Deborah

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Get a Free copy of Honest Sex: A Passionate Path to Deepen Connection and Keep Relationships Alive.(opens in new tab)
Whether you’re dating or in a relationship it shows you how to take the self-doubt, struggle and shame out of your love life.

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Each quiz only takes a few minutes, and give you a personalized report of how you can have more of the love and intimacy you want.

Bio:

Deborah Kat lives a turned-on life as a pleasure CEO. As founder of the Pleasure Playground, she works one on one with men who have lived their whole lives pleasing others and are ready to live life on their own terms.

Deborah leads monthly classes online exploring the edges of sexuality and spirit. She combines her diverse background, Tantra massage, and BDSM to support men and couples to experience satisfying relationships and masterful sex.

Deborah is a certified Tantric Educator, Bondassage Trainer, Orgasmic Meditation Coach, and currently a student at the Somatica Institute.

Transcript:

Questions this episode explores:

Shana James Relationship Coach (00:00)
 Hello and welcome to this episode of Practicing Love. I’m your host, Shana James, and I’m so excited to be here with a dear friend and colleague, Deborah Kat. Thank you so much for being here.

Deborah Kat (00:11)
 My pleasure.

Shana James Relationship Coach (00:12)
 We are going to talk about what makes a great sex life, for real. It’s not tips and tricks and positions and all the things that are out there that are hyped up and blown out, right? We want to really have a genuine conversation about what makes a great sex life. And that’s not going to be the same for every person. So we get to explore what that is.

And Deborah is a tantra teacher, a relationship expert, also a professional dominatrix, I saw on your website. So we can —

Deborah Kat (00:43)
 Yes, it’s true.

Shana James Relationship Coach (00:44)
 We can talk about it from all of these lenses.

Deborah Kat (00:48)
 Absolutely. Well, first of all, Shana, thank you so much for having me. It is always —

Shana James Relationship Coach (00:52)
 Right.

Deborah Kat (00:53)
 — such a pleasure to have a conversation with you. And this subject of what makes a great sex life is so important because I feel like so much of what we’re told, so much of what we’re taught, is that it needs to look a certain way.

Shana James Relationship Coach (01:12)
 Yes.

Deborah Kat (01:13)
 And what I say to all of my clients is that a great sex life is what works for you and your partner. What feels good to your body, what feels good to your emotional state, what feels connecting, what feels juicy. And that looks so differently for all of us.

You know, you mentioned that I’m a certified tantric educator as well as a dominatrix, and it seems like those are two completely opposite poles. And what I found is that the thing that brings both of those together is connection. Connection to self, connection to your partner, connection to your pleasure, and the skills to ask for what you want and to —

You know, we were talking a little bit before we started about disappointment, but —

Shana James Relationship Coach (02:17)
 Yeah.

Deborah Kat (02:17)
 — the opportunity to hear, like, “That’s actually not what I’d like. I’d like something different.”

Shana James Relationship Coach (02:24)
 Yes.

Deborah Kat (02:25)
 And to know that you are going to disappoint your partner at some point. And your partner is going to disappoint you at some point. And to know that that’s —

Shana James Relationship Coach (02:34)
 It’s such a great point.

Deborah Kat (02:36)
 — that’s part of the game. And —

Shana James Relationship Coach (02:38)
 Right.

Deborah Kat (02:38)
 — so often, I know I do this, it’s like I get disappointed and I go off into my corner and I’m like, “I’m a terrible person, and I shouldn’t want that, and I shouldn’t ask for it, and it’s too much, and it’s too big,” and, like, it’ll take you out so quickly.

Shana James Relationship Coach (02:54)
 Yes.

Deborah Kat (02:55)
 Instead of what I’m personally practicing at this moment of, like, “Wow, that doesn’t work at this time, at this place, in this moment. What is going to work?”

Shana James Relationship Coach (03:06)
 Yes. Okay. You’re saying so many important things that I just want to double-click on. One, well, first I just want to say that I’m having a little bit of, like, a moment of giggling of you and I have been in the world of all kinds of things. Like, I’ve been at play parties where people have dressed in furry costumes, and like you said, the dominatrix and all these different role-playing.

And so, again, what that showed me, what you’re saying, I think, is it can look so many different ways. And the next part of asking for what you want and not going down that shame spiral of, “This is too much,” or “I’m too weird,” or “I’m too different,” or “What are people gonna think about me?”

When you actually start to access what’s true for you without all of that shame, you get to create something unique and beautiful.

Deborah Kat (04:00)
 Absolutely. And the beauty of a play party is just what you said. You’re gonna see all sorts of different things, all sorts of different bodies. You might get some new and exciting ideas. And chances are, if you have an idea of something you want to try, there’s probably somebody out there that’s like, “Yes, I’m down. Let’s try it.”

Shana James Relationship Coach (04:24)
 Yeah.

Deborah Kat (04:25)
 And I think that’s such a really great piece around exploring. And one of the beauties certainly of the Bay Area and other places that have sex-positive experiences is that we have the opportunity to explore. We have the opportunity, if we’re willing, to say, “Hey, there’s this thing I’d like to try. I don’t know if I’m gonna like it or if I’m not, but there’s this thing I’d like to try.”

Shana James Relationship Coach (04:55)
 That —

And that is so key, too, to be able to say, “This is a fantasy,” or “This is something I’ve been thinking about,” or “This is something that I’ve never told anyone,” right? Like, how you can take a risk with a partner. And, you know, we can talk a little bit more about how you back into that or how you can make it safe to share those things. I’d love to hear your tips on that.

But I have a sense from many of the couples I’ve worked with that when sex gets stale, or when sex feels less connected or less likely to happen after the honeymoon phase and kids, there isn’t a lot of creativity and playfulness. It goes more to shame. “I shouldn’t want this. What’s wrong with me?” Or “What’s strange about me?” Or just blankness.

Years ago, I would talk about the whole realm from innocent and loving, where you get to be cared for and treated in such beautiful, attuned ways, all the way to those power dynamics and being taken advantage of, with consent, and the whole realm can happen.

So how do you help people ask for that or make a little bit more of a bold move in their relationship?

Deborah Kat (06:09)
 Well, first I want to say something about fantasy. Fantasy is an amazing tool. It is an amazing experience. And just because we have the fantasy doesn’t mean that we need to make it happen, right? A lot —

Shana James Relationship Coach (06:24)
 Yes. Yes.

Deborah Kat (06:26)
 — of times fantasy is not actually anatomically correct or possible. Like, at least my fantasies are.

Shana James Relationship Coach (06:31)
 Great. I’m gonna do that thing and actually —

Deborah Kat (06:35)
 You know, I will admit that I have a few fantasies that are like flying through space with multiple partners and lots of things happening. And I think underneath that fantasy, what I’m looking for is to feel not exactly overwhelmed, but that I can’t control things.

Shana James Relationship Coach (07:00)
 Yes.

Deborah Kat (07:00)
 Right?

And what I mean by that is — I want to be very clear what I mean by that —

Shana James Relationship Coach (07:04)
 Great.

Deborah Kat (07:05)
 I spend a lot of time in control, in charge, making sure that everything happens in a certain way. And so when I think about fantasies where I am overtaken or not in control, what I’m looking for is that surrendered place, right?

Shana James Relationship Coach (07:24)
 Yes.

Deborah Kat (07:25)
 That place where I’m — there’s so much happening that my brain just kind of goes like, “Okay, let’s try it. Let’s see what’s going on.”

Shana James Relationship Coach (07:35)
 Let’s actually —

Let’s let go of trying to manage and figure out what needs to happen.

Deborah Kat (07:40)
 Exactly, exactly. And so I just really want to bring that in around fantasy. It is a potent tool. And just because you have a fantasy doesn’t mean that it needs to be a reality. It doesn’t need to happen exactly the way that you’re fantasizing about it.

Shana James Relationship Coach (08:03)
 Right.

Deborah Kat (08:03)
 However, if there’s a feeling that you’re looking for, that is possible.

Shana James Relationship Coach (08:10)
 Yes.

Deborah Kat (08:11)
 So in power dynamics, often, and in BDSM, I find that there’s three sort of main fantasies that people are looking at, right? They’re looking at the power dynamic, they’re looking at restraint, or some version of being restrained.

And they’re looking at impact. So impact is spanking or flogging or these things. And what I’ve found is in each of them, there’s an underlying thing that we’re looking for.

So, for instance —

Shana James Relationship Coach (08:42)
 Mm.

Deborah Kat (08:44)
 With impact, we might be looking to get into the body. I’ve noticed that people who really like that kind of play are folks that are up in their heads a lot of the time and have a lot —

Shana James Relationship Coach (08:56)
 Right, right, right. And that impact feels like, boom, I’m here. I can — that —

Deborah Kat (09:02)
 Yeah.

Shana James Relationship Coach (09:03)
 — other — the mind goes away.

Deborah Kat (09:05)
 Absolutely. Pain will bring you into the body. And sometimes we’ll trip or do — or something, and it’s like, “I’m back in my body.” And so the same thing with impact play.

Restraint — and what I mean by that is either being physically restrained or being tied up, being restrained by your wrists and your ankles, or Shibari. And Shibari, for those who are not familiar, is a very intricate way of rope play in which part of the allure of it is the aesthetics.

And so with the restraint, we’re looking for that confinement, right?

Shana James Relationship Coach (09:55)
 It could be some kind of boundary, too, like you can’t walk over there or you can’t—it doesn’t even have to be physical, right?

Deborah Kat (10:01)
 Absolutely. Absolutely. That’s called predicament play, or predicament restraint. You know, so it’s like you’re gonna stand with a glass on your head and you’re gonna keep it balanced. Or you’re gonna not cross this line.

Shana James Relationship Coach (10:17)
 Mm-hmm.

Deborah Kat (10:17)
 Right. So that’s definitely part, but there’s a containment thing around that, right?

Shana James Relationship Coach (10:21)
 Yes.

Deborah Kat (10:22)
 So if it’s physical containment, sometimes people want something to press against.

Shana James Relationship Coach (10:28)
 Mm-hmm.

Deborah Kat (10:29)
 Sometimes it’s that mental version of confinement, you know, “Don’t move.” And then with the power dynamic, there’s all sorts of different things that people can be wanting in power dynamics. Oftentimes, I find that the person who is giving up power wants to feel something along the lines of cherished, special, well-behaved. For those of us that have an association with being sort of a bad girl or a bad boy, we might want to be a good girl or a good boy. For those of us who have an association with being a good girl or a good boy, we might want to be a bad boy or a bad girl. And so we’re looking to feel something.

And in all three of these dynamics, I would say when you’re the person who’s on the receiving end, there’s some version of surrender that you’re looking for.

Shana James Relationship Coach (11:27)
 Hmm. Interesting, ’cause it could be a surrender even into your control, or it could be a surrender out of control. It feels so multidimensional that there’s so many different ways to go, and there’s no right way.

Deborah Kat (11:40)
 Absolutely, absolutely. I always say, and this is for the person who’s in charge as well, the Dom or the top, however you want to talk about that, they’re in a surrendered experience as well. They might be in control, they might be the one holding the space or doing the thing —

Shana James Relationship Coach (11:59)
 Yes.

Deborah Kat (12:00)
 — but they’re also in a certain dynamic with the person that they’re doing to. So there’s a circuit that’s happening. There’s a surrender and a holding that’s happening.

And I’m just gonna jump here, because, you know, on the one side, this is what we talk about with kink and BDSM, but like when you think about Tantra, right —

Shana James Relationship Coach (12:24)
 Yes.

Deborah Kat (12:25)
 — we have the masculine and feminine dynamic here.

And what’s important about both of these dynamics is that there’s a circuit happening, right?

Shana James Relationship Coach (12:34)
 Yes. It’s so beautiful about these dynamics. I want to hear more what you have to say, but I just want to make that point that for those of you listening and you’re like, “I don’t want anything to do with power dynamics,” or “That feels way too far out for me,” it is more about this circuit that you’re going to talk more about and this way of being connected and intimate and actually knowing each other and discovering each other through whatever form of play you want to engage in.

Deborah Kat (13:01)
 Absolutely. And even with the masculine-feminine dynamic, there’s generally a way that person wants to feel, right? We can just use the word masculine, but there’s so much that goes with that.

This goes a little bit with the Dom/sub piece as well, because there’s so many different versions. But like, there’s the version of the daddy version, or there’s sort of a more coach version.

You know, “Let me cheerlead you. Let me help you to be that better version of yourself.” There’s also the more—

Shana James Relationship Coach (13:33)
 Service-oriented, right? Like, “I wanna support you to grow or to discover something new about yourself,” or so many different ways.

Deborah Kat (13:43)
 Absolutely. And there’s so many different flavors of the feminine. There’s so many different flavors. There’s the more flowy version. There’s the more queenly version. There’s the bratty version, right? And when you’re playing, whichever circuit you’re playing in, what you’re looking for is, are we matching each other?

Are we furthering each other? Is there a circuit? Am I able to receive what it is you’re giving?

Shana James Relationship Coach (14:10)
 Which is a really tough one for a lot of people too, right? To be able to receive. For some people, giving can be harder; for some people, receiving. But most people I work with have a hard time receiving because there’s not only asking for what you want, but then can you actually experience it and let yourself have it and be overtaken or be full of that pleasure?

Deborah Kat (14:34)
 Absolutely. For me, I’ll just say personally, I really learned how to receive in the submissive role, right?

Shana James Relationship Coach (14:42)
 Mm.

Deborah Kat (14:43)
 I really learned how to receive when we brought in things like blindfolds, where I couldn’t be in control.

So I really encourage people to play with these things.

Shana James Relationship Coach (14:59)
 Yes.

Deborah Kat (14:59)
 When your partner offers you, “Hey, you know, there’s this thing I want to try.” Right? And sometimes, I mean, I don’t know about you, but like, I know often my first reaction to anything new is resistance.

Shana James Relationship Coach (15:17)
 Interesting. Yeah.

Deborah Kat (15:19)
 You know? And so it’s really a process of, like, taking a breath and kind of—

Shana James Relationship Coach (15:26)
 Yes.

Deborah Kat (15:26)
 — going like, “Okay, this is why you wanna try this thing.”

Shana James Relationship Coach (15:30)
 This is new or different. Right. I mean, I wrote in Honest Sex, I have a section on receiving your partner’s desires, and the difference between saying, “No, no, no, that’s not me,” or “I’m not someone who does that,” or “That’s weird,” or “I don’t like that,” versus being able to say, “Whew, I just got nervous,” or “That is scary to me,” or “This part I feel uncomfortable with,” right?

And how you create — you can co-create from there. But if we’re just shutting down our partner’s desires, I think that’s one of the big things that can lead to affairs and fading passion and attraction. Because if we aren’t free to express ourselves, then we start to feel less alive, which I know you have a value and I have a value around aliveness and a sex life and a love life.

Deborah Kat (16:24)
 Yeah, absolutely. And you know, I wanna say that sex, and particularly in long-term relationships, it goes through cycles. And what feels good and looks good in one cycle may or may not feel that great or look that great in another cycle.

And I find that oftentimes, and again, personally, you know, we go through cycles where it’s like the best sex that we’re having is not necessarily anything that looks like sex. It’s that connection place, it’s that deep cuddling place, it’s that nourishing, loving, holding place.

Shana James Relationship Coach (17:17)
 Well, I know, and you and I both have a wider definition of sex. We’ve talked about this on maybe on your podcast, I think, that we call that sex, right? Whereas a lot of people, it’s like intercourse is sex, or it has to be genitals.

Deborah Kat (17:31)
 Right. Right.

Shana James Relationship Coach (17:32)
 And then I think people miss out. So, like you’re saying, you go through phases where sometimes the sex is more gentle, more energetic or cuddling, less that physical genital sex, and then you allow for that in a certain phase. Is that what you’re saying?

Deborah Kat (17:51)
 Absolutely.

As you said, for most people it is this very stereotypical, like, two people see each other, they’re attracted, there’s a little bit of flirting, there’s a little bit of foreplay, there’s escalation, there’s climax, there’s napping, and that’s good. And not everybody is built that way.

And we have sex for so many different reasons. This is something I talk about a lot with my clients, is that, you know, there are so many different reasons, right? There is straight-up stress release, there is connection, there is approval, there is vulnerability, there is this place where we get to say and do and be things for each other that are not available in other ways. There’s things that can happen in sex that don’t happen anywhere else.

And I don’t — yes, there’s — yes, I mean it penetrative-wise, but I also mean that spiritually or energetically.

Shana James Relationship Coach (18:58)
 Totally.

Deborah Kat (18:59)
 I really love Jaya’s work with the Erotic Blueprints in terms of just looking at the idea that there are different ways in which we are wired for sex.

Shana James Relationship Coach (19:15)
 Yes.

Deborah Kat (19:16)
 Some of us are, “Let’s get straight to the point.” Some of us need a little bit of taboo to even start playing. And for some of us, it’s all about the journey through the senses, you know, through the touch, through the hearing…

Shana James Relationship Coach (19:31)

Yeah. And again, what you said before, none of them are wrong, right? And then when you get to know your partner and you can actually co-create that together, how beautiful is that?

But I think so many couples — well, first of all, many couples come together, and especially if they’re like — if there’s a religious background where you’re not having sex before you get married, you wouldn’t even know, right? Whose type is whose.

Deborah Kat (19:59)
 Mm-hmm.

Shana James Relationship Coach (19:59)
 I don’t know about you, but I dated a man once where it became clear that we both really liked that role of surrender and sex. And while we had all these amazing things in common, it was like, this isn’t really gonna be satisfying for either one of us, right? And — but it didn’t —

Deborah Kat (20:16)
 Right.

Shana James Relationship Coach (20:17)
 — make him wrong or me wrong.

Deborah Kat (20:19)
 Right, because there’s no circuit there. And when I think of chemistry, like, people will often talk about chemistry. And what I’ve come to believe they’re talking about is, is there a circuit here? Is there —

Shana James Relationship Coach (20:31)
 Mm-hmm.

Deborah Kat (20:33)
 — is there enough of somebody giving and somebody receiving, or somebody offering and somebody taking, or, you know, but that circuit of something is happening here.

But like you said, if both of you want to be in the giving role, or both of you want to be in the receiving role, there’s not a circuit. So there’s not really anywhere for that to go.

Shana James Relationship Coach (20:56)
 Right. Which, unless you can blow that out of the water with all of Betty Martin’s work around it — it always blows my mind, right? It’s like you can be the toucher and giving, or you can be the one being touched and giving. Or you can be the toucher and receiving, or you can be the one being touched and receiving.

So this is where I think, you know, to your work and my work, it’s like so much of this people haven’t really thought about or spent decades playing with like we have around, how do we get out of the box and these limitations that society either creates for us or just doesn’t even show us a path.

Deborah Kat (21:36)
 Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And I’m so glad that you brought up Betty Martin’s work because it’s really good stuff. It’s something that I use a lot with my clients. One of the core pieces of her work is asking, “Who is this for?”

And when you ask, “Who is this for?” you get to direct the attention a little bit differently.

Shana James Relationship Coach (22:02)
 Yes.

Deborah Kat (22:03)
 And this is something that I see in kink play a lot, where there’s not a really clear idea of who it’s for. And so it ends up being a little bit flat.

And this is something I would say with both the Tantra world and the kink world: while you are with this person in front of you, I know for myself anyway, when particularly in the submissive role, yes, I am submitting to the person in front of me, but there’s also a part of submission that I’m doing internally.

Shana James Relationship Coach (22:40)
 No.

Deborah Kat (22:41)
 And, you know, I think of myself as submitting to something bigger. And what I mean by that is I’ve had Doms ask me to do something or tell me to do something, and I’ll run up against, like, whether it’s something that feels humiliating or uncomfortable or just out of my range. And, you know, first of all, figuring out whether it’s something I want to actually try to push up against is important.

Shana James Relationship Coach (23:13)
 Yeah.

Deborah Kat (23:13)
 But also, like, when I do push up against that thing, what am I pushing up against? Most often, in my case, it is my ego.

Shana James Relationship Coach (23:21)
 Yes.

Deborah Kat (23:25)
 It’s something I’ve been really looking at a lot in my life in general and my relationship in particular: how often does my ego step in to shut something down?

Shana James Relationship Coach (23:40)
 And yeah, mine does more than I want it to.

Deborah Kat (23:46)
 Yeah. I see that in relationships often, where it’s like there’s a pattern that is a groove that is so well-worn that stepping off that path can be really challenging.

And one of the ways that we can do that is when we start doing things like playing with Betty Martin’s work, when we start asking, you know, “Who is this for? Am I willing to step into your fantasy? Am I willing to play in your world?” Even —

Shana James Relationship Coach (24:22)
 Yes.

Deborah Kat (24:23)
 — even if it’s not exactly what I would prefer?

Shana James Relationship Coach (24:25)
 Right. That’s such a beautiful question, too. And that range of, “Am I really excited about this? Am I willing, but maybe I need something to look slightly different? Or am I actually a no?”

And like you said before, disappointment is going to be part of dynamics and relationships. And I know there are times where someone’s wanted something in a relationship and I’ve thought, “That’s not really what I want.”

Sometimes I am so afraid of disappointing someone that I create my own downward spiral instead —

Deborah Kat (25:00)
 Mm-hmm.

Shana James Relationship Coach (25:01)
 — of someone else actually being disappointed with me. You gave an example before where I could actually honor that maybe there’s something that isn’t working and I could ask for something to be different.

Or I could make a request, or I can pause and we can continue to refine or co-create what’s happening.

Deborah Kat (25:23)
 Absolutely. I like to say there’s the yes, there’s the no, and there’s, “Let’s try it.” And “Let’s try it” is just that. It’s like, how can we try something? And if it doesn’t work, no foul, no shame there.

And going back to what I was saying about there’s fantasy. And then there’s, how do we actually find the thing that we’re really looking for? Right?

Shana James Relationship Coach (25:52)
 You could —

That feeling, that underlying sense of, like you said, “I want to feel like I’m flying,” or “I wanna feel overwhelmed,” there’s a reason why we want something. And we often go to that surface expression, but —

Deborah Kat (26:05)
 Mm-hmm.

Shana James Relationship Coach (26:05)
 — there could be hundreds of surface expressions when we really get deeper into, why do you want that?

Deborah Kat (26:11)
 Yeah, why do we want that? And how does it feel? Right? It’s like you might not need a spaceship and hundreds of people. Maybe all you need is a blindfold. Right? Like, maybe all you need is a blindfold and having hands all over you.

Shana James Relationship Coach (26:31)
 Right.

Deborah Kat (26:32)
 So there’s generally ways to find and to play with these places.

And one of the things you’d asked earlier about is, like, how do we bring these things up to our partners? And fortunately, these days we’ve got books, we’ve got podcasts, we’ve got movies. We can say something like, “Hey, there’s this podcast I was listening to, and there were these amazing women, and they were talking about fantasy. And one of the things I heard was, ‘What do you think about that?'” Right?

Shana James Relationship Coach (27:08)
 Mm-hmm.

Deborah Kat (27:09)
 Or there’s lots of different checklists and tests that we can take. I often will use Jaya’s Erotic Blueprints test for people because it’s —

Shana James Relationship Coach (27:24)
 Yep, it’s a good one.

Deborah Kat (27:25)
 — a great way to start the conversation. And I just want to say that, like anything, whether it is astrology or human design or Erotic Blueprints, these things are information, right? They’re just letting us know something. And sometimes it resonates, and sometimes it’s like, “Mm, yeah, maybe not.”

Shana James Relationship Coach (27:51)
 Right. And you can take parts from it that actually work for you, and leave the rest if it doesn’t.

Deborah Kat (27:58)
 Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah.

Shana James Relationship Coach (28:02)
 Yeah, I love that. And I love the, “Okay, I heard this on a podcast,” or “I read this.” Or I often have people come to a conversation with intention or context, because I find that as a human being — and I know this is one of the ways I work — if someone says, “Hey, I want to talk to you about something,” because of my history, I immediately go into, like, “Shit, what’s wrong? What did I do? Are you leaving me?” You know, the whole range.

Whereas —

Deborah Kat (28:33)
 Right.

Shana James Relationship Coach (28:35)
 — if you’re like, “Hey, I really want us both to feel more pleasure,” or “I’m having these ideas that I’ve never really thought about before that could be a little bit edgy for us, but I think it also could create even more excitement in our sex life,” or —

And that piece around slowing down. I’m learning this with my kid, too. We’re not having conversations about our sex life, but we’re having conversations where I’m like, “We’re gonna have a couple-minute conversation here, and then we’re gonna have a couple-minute conversation in two days from now.” It’s like, it may not all happen at once. And if we can slow ourselves down and stick with it, sometimes people need a little more comfort along the way.

Deborah Kat (29:18)
 Absolutely. And I want to underline what you said about, “I want us to have more pleasure. I want to feel more connected.” And it’s funny because it’s like, I certainly have my phrase: “I want us to feel more connected.”

Shana James Relationship Coach (29:33)
 Love it.

Deborah Kat (29:34)
 And I think, what would his phrase be?

I don’t think he has a phrase. He just jumps in. But —

Shana James Relationship Coach (29:43)
 Ha ha.

Deborah Kat (29:44)
 I’ll start with, “I want us to feel more connected. So I was thinking about X, Y, or Z.”

Shana James Relationship Coach (29:49)
 Nice.

Deborah Kat (29:50)
 And it definitely lands better than the “We need to talk,” right? Because that doesn’t — that, as you said, it’s like that can really trigger people’s defense mechanisms.

But one of the things that is important when we’re having conversations is, are we in a place where we have capacity to have that conversation?

Shana James Relationship Coach (30:15)
 Yes.

Deborah Kat (30:16)
 I have a tendency to walk in on my partner when he’s in the middle of, you know, watching something or doing something. And in the past I might not have taken what he was doing quite as — you know, I would feel my need very high, and so I would —

Shana James Relationship Coach (30:39)
 Prioritize it over what he’s doing. Yeah.

Deborah Kat (30:41)
 Exactly. Thank you.

Yes, thank you. I might prioritize my need over his need.

Shana James Relationship Coach (30:48)
 Right. “Get off your show. This is more important. This is — “

Deborah Kat (30:51)
 Exactly, exactly. And I’ve found that that does not work. That does not work well at all.

Shana James Relationship Coach (30:59)
 Yep, nope, no personal experience with that over here.

Deborah Kat (31:03)
 So saying something like, “Hey, babe, when you’re done, can you come check in with me?” works a lot better. Right?

Shana James Relationship Coach (31:12)
 Yeah, right. “Is this a good time?” And if it’s not, let’s find another time instead of trying to rush it.

Deborah Kat (31:18)
 Yeah, and even that kind of like, “Is it a good time?” I found, at least with us, is also a bit of a trigger. Yeah, just kind of like, you know, “Come find me when you’re done” is usually what works better for us.

Shana James Relationship Coach (31:36)
 Works better. Great. Right. That’s — we’re all unique in what works and what we get triggered by. Our histories —

Deborah Kat (31:41)
 Right.

Shana James Relationship Coach (31:42)
 — are different.

Deborah Kat (31:43)
 Right, right. And, you know, that gives me the opportunity, when he’s doing his thing, to go off and be like, okay, what are my practices?

What is my practice to take the charge off of things? You know, one of the most important things I’ve ever learned about relationships and having these kinds of conversations is, what is my charge here?

Shana James Relationship Coach (32:08)
 Can you describe “charge” for people who don’t know that language?

Deborah Kat (32:11)
 Yeah. So something happens, I’m upset, I take that upset into the conversation that I’m having with my partner. Versus something happens, I’m upset, I’ve got several different practices to help me clear the charge.

One of them is writing. One of them is — I’m a big mover. So I’ll put on some music and I will move. And then I’ve got practices that I can do with other people if someone’s available. Spring cleaning is a great one from the Mama Gena world.

But I have practices that help me to lessen that charge, so that when he and I have a conversation, he’s not hit with all of this energy. Like, he gets the calmer version versus the, like —

Shana James Relationship Coach (33:13)
 Brrrr. I’m a tiger and I’m about to eat you.

Deborah Kat (33:17)
 You know, sometimes when he gets that charge, he’ll just literally reach out and pull me in and contain me.

And then I get to be mad about that. And then I get to —

Shana James Relationship Coach (33:32)
 Surrender or not.

Deborah Kat (33:33)
 Surrender.

And then we can have that conversation. Right?

Shana James Relationship Coach (33:37)
 Beautiful. Yeah. Well, what I’m hearing in that, too, is that you two have a way that you’ve created that can work for you sometimes. That sometimes when you have all of that energy, he could be one of the people who supports you to digest it or to bring it in a way that is connected between the two of you.

Deborah Kat (33:59)
 Absolutely. And of course, it depends on where he’s at and where I’m at and all the things. And I know that he’s got his patterns as well. Right? There’s certain ways that he’ll start a conversation and I’ll be like, “Alrighty then, let me find my feet on the ground, let me take a deep breath, let me find my heart. All right, babe, what do you got?”

Shana James Relationship Coach (34:22)
 So powerful to hear you say that, ’cause each person taking responsibility, right? Not just, “I’m just gonna bring willy-nilly everything to my partner,” or even generously receiving your partner when they’re upset, and how do you find your own heart, like you just said. It’s beautiful.

Deborah Kat (34:40)
 Yeah, and these are practices that we’ve stumbled upon. These are practices that we’ve looked for. These are practices — we’ve been together for twenty-seven years, so we’ve got a little —

Shana James Relationship Coach (34:50)
 Amazing.

Deborah Kat (34:51)
 — bit of history going on. We’ve been through enough of the shame, we’ve been through enough of the vulnerability, we’ve been through enough of the —

— the pieces to know that we’re still safe here. Right?

Shana James Relationship Coach (35:05)
 Amazing. This is amazing.

Deborah Kat (35:07)
 And, you know, I really — I don’t take that for granted, because I know it can be so challenging, particularly in the beginning, when you’re bringing something vulnerable to your partner —

Shana James Relationship Coach (35:21)
 Yes.

Deborah Kat (35:21)
 — or to someone that you don’t know, or you don’t know how something is gonna land. And so I really appreciate that there is that place of, like, okay, how much and how fast and what is it that I’m willing to reveal?

And what I know with my own experience and that of my clients is, generally speaking, the more that we can reveal in a vulnerable and clean way, the better that conversation is gonna go.

Shana James Relationship Coach (35:57)
 Beautiful.

Deborah Kat (35:58)
 They’re not always gonna go that way, and that’s why we learned how to repair.

Shana James Relationship Coach (36:02)
 Yes. Yes.

Well, thank you so —

Deborah Kat (36:05)
 Mm.

Shana James Relationship Coach (36:06)
 — much. I’m really grateful for you. I love how enjoyable it is, always, how pleasurable to talk to you, and also how much wisdom you bring. And I know we scratched the surface in a way. I know there’s so much more.

So is there any last thing you want to say before you tell people how to find you?

Deborah Kat (36:27)
 Mm, what do I want to say? I just wanna say that my overarching belief around relationships is that they are a practice that we are going to —

Shana James Relationship Coach (36:42)
 Good thing you’re on the Practicing Love Podcast.

Deborah Kat (36:45)
 Exactly.

Exactly. It really is something that we practice. It’s something that we get better at. It’s something that the more that we allow ourselves to make the experience, the more that we get to find out what works and what doesn’t.

Shana James Relationship Coach (37:05)
 Yeah.

Deborah Kat (37:06)
 And you can really involve your partner in the idea that this is a practice. I mean, I’ve said to my partner before, “I don’t know how this is gonna come out. I gotta practice.”

Shana James Relationship Coach (37:18)
 Yeah. Yeah. I don’t know what’s gonna happen here, but are you willing to try this? Would you co-create something with me?

And I think that is language that many people are not used to. And it gives so much more freedom instead of, “This has to go right. This has to go well.”

One of my favorite lines in the middle of a sexual experience where something gets really awkward is, “We’ll just cut that one out of the movie.”

Deborah Kat (37:45)
 That’s so good. I love that. We’ll just edit that one right out.

Shana James Relationship Coach (37:48)
 Yeah. You get to make fun. We’ll just edit that one out.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. And yeah, where can people find more of you?

Deborah Kat (37:58)
 Absolutely. So you can find me on the Better Sex Podcast. I’m the host there. You can find me at DeborahKat.com, and that’s D-E-B-O-R-A-H-K-A-T.com. So, the two unusual spellings of Deborah and Kat.

And I’m on Instagram, DeborahTantraKat, and those are the big places right now. So —

Shana James Relationship Coach (38:28)
 Perfect. Thank you so much, and I look forward to more.

Deborah Kat (38:33)
 Yay, thank you.

 

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