The relational patterns you learn in childhood shape your romantic relationships, often without you knowing it. In this episode, we dive deep into how early experiences influence adult love — and what it takes to unlearn those patterns to build real, lasting connection. Host Shana James and executive coach Jake Fishbein explore emotional resilience, trust, and the courage to embrace vulnerability in love.
Find out how to have the best love and sex of your life!
Unlearn Childhood Patterns to Build Real Love: Show Notes
If you struggle in your romantic relationships (which honestly, most of us do) it’s important to understand what really drives the pain and frustration. The patterns and habits that trip us up in love didn’t just appear out of nowhere. They often trace back to our earliest experiences, and sometimes all the way to childhood.
After all, how could we learn to love well when healthy love wasn’t modeled for us?
When the examples we had were incomplete, confusing, or even painful, it’s no surprise that we carry those lessons into adulthood — and unconsciously repeat them in our relationships.
In this week’s episode of Practicing Love, I talk with executive coach Jake Fishbein, who didn’t have his first relationship until he was 24. From that late start came years of unraveling:
- Why do we choose the partners we choose?
- Why do we self-abandon?
- And how do we learn to trust — not just others, but ourselves?
Jake grew up feeling loved when he was calm and emotionally “together.” That conditioning created a classic “nice guy” pattern: where conflict was avoided, big desires were suppressed, and the desire to be a savior kicked in.
In this conversation, we explore what it takes to unwind these deeply rooted patterns, and how honoring your anger, naming your desires, and even risking heartbreak can open the door to honest, adult intimacy.
We talk about:
- The hidden costs of trying to save others and abandoning yourself emotionally
- How to make big requests when you’ve been trained not to want too much
- The surprising positive outcomes of allowing yourself to be angry
- Writing, fantasy, and play as tools for unlocking the real you
- Why love is still worth it, even with the potential of heartbreak
- Permission to make “mistakes” in love, and to grow through them
Jake is honest about his journey, and if you’ve ever struggled to express your truth, or felt like your relationship patterns were keeping you from the love you want, this one’s for you.
P.S. Share this episode with someone who is learning to love more bravely, especially if they got a late start or feel stuck in old patterns. This kind of vulnerability is how we grow.
Links:
Connect with Shana James
Best love and sex of your life quiz
Get a Free copy of Honest Sex: A Passionate Path to Deepen Connection and Keep Relationships Alive.
Whether you’re dating or in a relationship it shows you how to take the self-doubt, struggle and shame out of your love life.
Curious what you’d need to become a better leader and lover? Take the quiz
For Women: Modern dating doesn’t have to be a nightmare for women
Connect with Jake
Bio:
Jake Fishbein is a New York City-based Executive Coach, Facilitator, and Men’s Work Leader who helps corporate executives become better leaders and men have better relationships. He’s worked with men for nearly a decade and currently co-leads The Arena Men’s Group. Jake has coached everyone from small business owners and individual contributors to directors and CEOs in his career. In addition to his work as a coach, Jake is preparing to publish his first novel — a story about a fictional men’s group he’s been working on since 2016.
Transcript:
Shana James (00:03.594)
Hello, and welcome to this episode of Practicing Love: Have the Best Love and Sex of Your Life After 40. I’m your host, Shana James, and I’m excited to be here today to talk to another amazing man — an executive coach, men’s group leader, and facilitator, and just a really deep and inspiring human.
I love bringing deep, inspiring humans here to share their wisdom and also the vulnerability of practicing love and being human. You know, we have wounds, struggles, and situations that happened in our past. Part of the purpose of this is to help people realize they’re not alone.
Even people who work in this field still struggle. So thank you, Jake Fishbein, for being here and for being willing to share your story and talk about how to unlearn childhood patterns to build real love.
Jake Fishbein (01:02.274)
Thank you, Shana. It’s great to be here.
Shana James (01:05.481)
So I like to start with a little bit of either relationship history or your current relationship. Tell us something important that you want us to know — it could be a new relationship, a long one. What would you like us to know about that?
Jake Fishbein (01:20.44)
Yeah, I’ll give a bit of a historical snapshot because I think it’s important to understand my relationships when I was a kid. In elementary school and high school, having my first crushes, I used to have trouble falling asleep. I’d lie awake at night and tell myself stories, inevitably about the girls I had crushes on and how one day we’d get married and I’d own the Boston Red Sox — which hasn’t happened yet, and honestly, I don’t really want that. Not the Boston Red Sox part, not the marriage part.
But all that time, I was never in a relationship. I sabotaged myself a lot. I had many stories that if I liked someone, they couldn’t like me, based on experiences I had. I carried that through college, where there were women interested in me, and I was interested in them, but I just could not see it. I couldn’t accept it, even when it was handed to me on a silver platter.
Shana James (02:26.692)
My gosh, that just hurts my heart so much. I’m so grateful that you’re now in a relationship, but wow, all those years… and you’re definitely not alone. I talk to a lot of men who have had that experience.
Jake Fishbein (02:39.018)
Absolutely. It was, I mean, it was not great. It was pretty shitty and really challenging. It took going to a series of workshops and recognizing, “This is the narrative I have about relationships based on my experiences.” I ended up in a relationship for four years — my first serious relationship — when I was 24.
Shana James (02:43.569)
So challenging.
Jake Fishbein (03:02.486)
It was beautiful in many ways, and also very challenging in many ways, because it was my first relationship. So it wasn’t the right relationship for me.
Shana James (03:09.534)
Right. That’s the one thing I just — yeah, the funny thought I just had was, God, even people who are in relationships at 24 and have been in relationships, it’s hard, right? Because we don’t get trained about love and sex and emotions and all those things. Then going in and having that be your first relationship — that’s even more challenging.
Jake Fishbein (03:34.67)
It was really challenging. I had trouble saying no. She was very good at getting what she wanted, and I wasn’t good with my boundaries. Very early on, I think I knew this wasn’t the relationship I wanted for the long term, but I didn’t know how to leave. Eventually, I did end it — that was in 2019.
Then I went through a few years of lots of dates, lots of dating apps, lots of emotional unavailability, a great relationship that ended when I met her parents, and she broke up with me over FaceTime, which was not pleasant.
Then I met Perry. I’ve been dating Perry since April 12th, 2023. She’s my person. She will be who I’m with for the rest of my life.
Shana James (04:24.624)
I’m so glad you found each other.
Jake Fishbein (04:28.14)
I’m glad we found each other. What I see now is everything I had to learn in all those relationships — there’s a reason why I chose them at those times, and why I had those experiences, even though I wouldn’t want to go through them again. They were necessary to get me here, to let go of the needs I was bringing into relationships, which were far more about my own ego — a need to be valued and loved not for who I was, but for what I could do. Now, being valued and loved for who I am, in a real partnership with someone, is a radically game-changing experience.
Shana James (05:07.339)
My gosh. That is— It’s so game-changing, and it’s just gold what you said. So many of us come into relationships looking to be valued because we need that value. I was just thinking about a college roommate of mine who was breaking up with her boyfriend — she was really sad but was reading him that book, what is it? The big O and the missing piece?
Do you remember that? Shel Silverstein, I think. It was basically this circle with a pie piece cut out, looking for its missing piece. She was trying to tell him, “You’re looking for me to validate you and all these things.” It just reminds me how common that is, again, because we’re not taught from a young age to value ourselves or to engage with others who don’t value themselves. So then we need to unlearn childhood patterns to build real love.
Shana James (06:12.138)
I’m so touched by what you’re saying. There’s something profound because even now, as you listen, you can look at where you’re still trying to get validation or value outside yourself, or for something you do. Like, “If I do this thing, then I’ll be loved, then I’ll get sex, then I’ll get all these things,” versus: can I actually relax as myself and be in a dynamic with a partner where we love and appreciate each other for who we are?
Jake Fishbein (06:48.65)
Exactly. I still catch myself in moments wondering, “Is this the right thing to do? Should I do this? Is this going to get me something on the other end?” I’ve become aware that growing up and into my mid-20s, so much of the value I derived was from helping people. Now I do that professionally, so people pay me for it, and the exchange is clear.
Shana James (06:51.709)
Of course.
Jake Fishbein (07:13.53)
In the past, it was that classic “nice guy” approach: let me be kind and helpful, hoping it would lead to a relationship. I still notice those tendencies when my girlfriend Perry is struggling — that part of me wants to click in and go into “savior mode.” I’m grateful she doesn’t need that beyond the normal give-and-take of supporting each other in a relationship.
Shana James (07:21.726)
Yes.
Jake Fishbein (07:43.278)
But I know that tendency is there, so I’m super careful about whether I’m doing this because I want to or because of old conditioning — that this is how I’ll be valued. It’s very nuanced. It’s not one or the other, not at all.
Shana James (07:53.002)
And it’s complicated. Yes, it is. It’s not black and white. No, no. That’s the purpose of this — we’re still practicing with these things that start from a young age. They don’t just go away. It’s not like once you know you have a tendency, you don’t do it anymore.
Jake Fishbein (08:18.446)
They’re still there.
Shana James (08:21.054)
Yes. Okay, so you’re in an amazing relationship now. Sometimes when we find a person who we can really be ourselves with, it seems like, great, that should be easy, or we shouldn’t have any conflict or issues. Sometimes it can be — and I don’t want to say the opposite, but it can be like: these things that we didn’t have enough safety or support to face before can then show themselves. I’m curious if that’s happened for you.
Jake Fishbein (09:01.39)
In some ways, certainly. My experience with Perry is that there’s so much trust that even when we have to face those things, it doesn’t feel like a big deal. There have been a few big things that weren’t easy and unpleasant, and we’ve worked through them. But the trust makes it feel safe.
Whereas in my first relationship, we met at a personal transformation workshop, so we carried a lot of that language and many practices into it. There was a lot of conflict we thought we were handling healthily. In hindsight, I think there was a lot of unresolved conflict we weren’t really resolving — we just dressed it up in the language of being self-expressive. Maybe she was, I certainly wasn’t.
Shana James (09:57.811)
Interesting.
Jake Fishbein (09:59.894)
In my relationship now, it’s not that I’m always perfectly expressive or always say what’s on my mind. Definitely not the case. But I know that when something needs to be said, I can say it. I’m not afraid that something really bad will happen. I might be nervous, I might have the physical reaction of fear — that happens regardless. But again, there’s so much trust, and the invitation is there to have these conversations or to just be with one another in a present way.
Shana James (10:31)
Yes, I love that. I want to ask a couple of questions because trust is such a fascinating topic. It’s funny—I’ve been putting these fake tattoos on my hand that say trust. I put one on this morning and was just talking with another client about exploring trust. Now you’re bringing it up, too. So, what do you think creates such deep trust between the two of you? How did you build or nurture that?
Jake Fishbein (11:05)
That’s a great question. Honestly, I have no idea what the exact answer is. I could make up some reasons—like things we did early on, the work we’ve each done—Perry’s been in therapy for a long time, I’ve been doing personal work for over ten years—and maybe it’s also that we’re both kind, empathetic, and not overly reactive people. But beyond that, I think it’s just who we are. We didn’t have those chaotic moments early on that blew things up and broke trust. The foundation was laid bit by bit, brick by brick, with enough trust.
Shana James (11:54)
So, it kind of just happened? I talk about invisible influences like that. You both did a lot of inner work to see and witness yourselves without taking things personally or trying to rescue each other. There are so many dynamics that build trust rather than shatter it. In my marriage, one way I broke trust was by emotionally reacting and saying, “Maybe this isn’t going to work.” That felt like a threat to the foundation. It sounds like you feel safe—that she’s not going to leave just because something comes up or you say something that doesn’t align with her needs or beliefs.
Jake Fishbein (13:02)
Exactly. And vice versa. It goes both ways. Even while you were speaking, I thought to myself, I know I’m not going anywhere—even when I feel like running away inside. That’s huge. There have been moments where I wondered, “Am I doing this right?” But I always come back to the choice: I choose her.
That creates even more trust, because I’m not letting my internal struggles infiltrate the relationship. I might bring those feelings to my men’s group or friends, but not into our relationship.
Perry senses that—I’m not going anywhere, and I know she’s not either. There’s so much respect and a desire to truly understand each other, even when we don’t fully get it yet. That helps us navigate the really hard stuff that comes up in any relationship, as we unlearn childhood patterns.
Shana James (14:19)
That desire to understand each other is so beautiful. I often see that missing in couples. Instead of trying to understand what’s really going on, they come in with accusations: “You’re doing this” or “I’m doing that.” When I ask, “Do you understand what’s underneath those actions? What’s motivating this person’s reaction?”—so often, they don’t. Trying to understand is an act of love.
Jake Fishbein (15:05)
Absolutely. It’s an act of practice. The whole idea of practicing love—it took me decades to realize that when I have a reaction, it usually has nothing to do with my partner. Unless someone is abusive or crossing boundaries, those reactions are about me. Being in a healthy relationship, when I still have reactions like I did in unhealthy ones, is a big light bulb moment. It’s a me thing, not a her thing. That realization gives me freedom to not blame her and instead be curious: “Why am I reacting this way? What’s coming up for me?” So I don’t drag her into my stuff.
Shana James (16:12)
Yes, beautiful. I feel like we’re circling around a specific struggle you have, but haven’t said it outright. Is it the “nice guy” tendency—the urge to be there for someone to get your own needs met? Or is there something else you want to add?
Jake Fishbein (16:37)
In what context?
Shana James (16:41)
Like, what do you struggle with that you’re now practicing as part of practicing love?
Jake Fishbein (16:49)
Yeah, a couple things. The “nice guy” tendency is definitely one—jumping in to save, hoping to get validation. Also, working on speaking up for what I want and need, and making big requests. The biggest challenge I’m working on across my life is allowing myself to be angry. That’s really hard and a constant practice. It’s connected to all those things: allowing anger, asking for what I need, not trying to fix things so I feel better or valued. It’s about letting the other person be in their experience without me trying to save it.
Shana James (17:51)
So many questions come up for me there. I can relate to allowing yourself to be angry. I didn’t even realize I was angry until my mid-20s—I just went straight to sad. I had a mother who expressed a lot of anger, and I decided that wasn’t an option for me. So I just stayed sad a lot. I have questions about your anger work, but first, I want to go back to making big requests. How do you think about what makes a request “big”? How do you find the courage to make those requests? How are you practicing that?
Jake Fishbein (18:39)
Right now, my practice is just noticing that I struggle to make big requests. A few months ago, I was at a workshop called Forefront, sponsored by Marshall Goldsmith, a top executive coach. On the last day, he said, “I want you all to ask me for something.” I sat there completely blank. People were asking for book proposals, sponsorships—big things. I was like, “Would you take a picture with me?” Afterwards, I asked him to write an article with me, and we’re actually going to write one together. But the big takeaway was recognizing I’d learned that big requests won’t be received, or I won’t receive them. I don’t even know what a big request is because I blank out on what I want to ask for. In my relationship, it’s easier since we live together and I get to practice every day.
Shana James (19:40)
Right. Yep.
Jake Fishbein (20:08.202):
Asking for the things I want—whether it’s wanting a specific painting on the wall or a picture placed somewhere else—which is not a small request. I think creating space is really, really important when living with somebody. So many men just hand it off to their partners and then wake up one day not living in a home they actually chose. I’ve made a very intentional choice not to do that. At the same time, I still have no idea what some of my big requests are because I’m still figuring that out.
Shana James (20:26.92):
Yep, that’s a great point. What strikes me about that is sometimes I ask the question: if you did know what you wanted right now, what would it be? Or what might make you feel more loved or cared for? But I can see, myself included, there’s a kind of box or blinders around what we’re aware of.
I was talking with a friend recently about an experience I had with my partner where I felt so loved, cherished, seen, and met. Her response was, “My God, I didn’t even know that was possible.” It wasn’t even on her radar. And I know she’s done that for me many times too, where I think, Wow, I hadn’t thought of that.
So I love this exploration you’re doing. It can be hard to make big requests and to even know what they are. But it seems like it opens up this whole new sense of What else do I want in my life? What do I want this relationship to look like? How do we want to have pleasure, meaning, and all of the amazing things?
Jake Fishbein (21:56.029):
Absolutely. I’m thinking now that I might start doing this: When I went through The Artist’s Way eleven years ago, one exercise was to keep a list and write down every time you want something—whether it’s I want to go to the moon or I want a chocolate milkshake. You just write down the desire.
I think there’s an opportunity for anyone listening—this is an exercise I’ve given many clients, but I think it’s important for myself too, especially inside my relationship—to write down more of the things they want without attaching to needing to have them or even thinking about feasibility. Maybe I want to go to the moon with Perry. That could be a want—not going to happen, but still on the list.
Shana James (22:33.312):
Good distinction. Sometimes when we allow ourselves to want—even if we know it may not happen—it stretches our capacity to see what’s possible.
That also makes me curious: how do you hold that distinction between knowing what you want versus wanting something that may not happen or might not be realistic?
Jake Fishbein (23:18.606):
I’m drawing a blank thinking about that, not because I don’t have a relationship with it. For so much of my life, I wanted things I didn’t believe would happen or were so fantastical. Like when I was a kid, besides dreaming about owning the Red Sox, I dreamed about opening a Greek-themed casino in Las Vegas where people would sail between city-states.
Who’s to say that’s unreasonable? There’s real power in allowing yourself to dream. Dreams don’t always have to be tied to how much or by when. In men’s work, there’s often a fine line where it goes from you said you want that to by when are you going to take action?
Sometimes that’s necessary. Other times, what’s needed is just the space to dream.
Shana James (24:28.446):
Yes.
Jake Fishbein (24:28.878):
To say, I want that—even if it’s completely unreasonable and not going to happen—I still want it, or I want to imagine what it would be like to have that without the attachment to it becoming real or tangible.
Shana James (24:35.689):
I don’t know if this fits for you, but when you say that I think: who am I in the space of dreaming? I’m a different person than when I’m disconnected from dreaming. There’s something that opens in my heart, my inspiration, and my sense of what’s precious in life. There’s something happening in the dreaming itself—even before the doing or having.
Jake Fishbein (25:19.458):
Yes. Dreaming opens up the possibility for something new, even if it’s not the dream itself. There’s a beautiful quote about utopia I wrote in an article recently—I can’t remember who said it exactly—but it’s something like utopia is always a step ahead of us.
Shana James (25:28.702):
Yes.
Jake Fishbein (25:46.294):
You take a step toward utopia and it takes a step back. Take five steps, and it takes five steps back. The point of utopia is to help us progress and move forward.
That’s what I’m connecting to with dreams—they’re not always meant to be realized, but they pull us forward. They help us advance.
Shana James (25:57.554):
Yeah. This feels vulnerable to say, but I remember in my marriage, my ex talked about some of his sexual desires. There was a moment when I got really nervous and thought, I don’t know if I want that. I remember him saying, just because I have a desire doesn’t mean it has to happen.
That was a foreign concept for me. It sounds like you grew up with that and maybe became familiar with it. I just remember feeling threatened by someone else’s desire that I wasn’t sure I wanted to meet. Now I feel like I have more space for that—to talk about it and see some desires live in fantasy, some pull us forward, and desires can move us in many ways.
Jake Fishbein (27:11.79):
Absolutely. To be fully honest, I’m good with my relationship with dreams and desires internally and knowing not to meet all of them. But when it comes to making big requests or speaking them to someone else, that’s where the nice guy part comes in. I don’t want to put that on someone else or have them assume I need it to happen.
Whereas, there is an opportunity—like your ex did—to just share it without expecting it to become real. But being honest and putting it on the table for both of you to look at and say, there’s the desire. We can keep it on the table or take it off or do something with it.
Shana James (27:56.606):
Right. In some ways, I see how enlivening that can be. It doesn’t mean it will be comfortable. Sometimes it can be too enlivening or a stretch or create discomfort.
But what I often see in couples who don’t allow themselves to dream or speak is that deadened quality—the spark fades, things get duller. So I connect that with having the courage to speak those desires. And that is a part of real love.
Jake Fishbein (28:33.63):
Yeah. It makes me think about how valuable it can be to play in a fantasy world from time to time—whether that’s a fantasy about the future, the present, or something completely outside possibility. That kind of creativity and freedom keeps a spark alive.
For me and some friends, one thing we do is come up with crazy business ideas that we’ll never pursue. Most are unfeasible, but it’s so much fun to play with. It creates connection and the possibility of pursuing them—even if we won’t—has huge value.
I see the same thing in romantic relationships—playing with fantasy possibilities without tying it to this is our reality or this is how things are.
Shana James (29:36.874):
Yes, I like that. Can we talk a little about anger? You said one of your practices is allowing yourself to be angry. Can you say more about that?
Jake Fishbein (29:42.552):
Yeah. I went to a Montessori school growing up in Santa Fe, New Mexico. One of my best friends—who I met in first grade and who’s been in my life ever since—joined the men’s group I run years ago.
Anger started coming up for both of us, and we connected around the fact that anger was not an acceptable emotion at our elementary school.
Shana James (30:25):
Really? In Montessori? Interesting.
Jake Fishbein (30:27):
In Montessori. And I think it had to do with being in Santa Fe, and being at a school run predominantly by women. Doesn’t help that both my parents are pretty conflict avoidant, at least in front of my brother and me. I know they work things out in private, but we didn’t see it. So I never had this example of what anger looks like in a healthy way.
When people got angry at La Mariposa, the Montessori school I went to, they were punished. So the message I picked up was: it’s not okay to be angry. And that I’ll get rewarded by being calm, by being understanding—anything but angry. That obviously has a lot of problematic implications, because anger is a normal human emotion. Acting out anger in an unhealthy way isn’t great, but recognizing and acknowledging anger in a healthy way is. Often, the only way a person figures out what the healthy way is, is by doing it unhealthily for a while. And I skipped that. I’ve noticed in the past few years — and this is where that trigger of “I need to save, I need to be helpful” comes in — I somewhere picked up a story, made up a story, that it’s okay for other people to be angry, but I don’t get to be angry. So other people express anger, and I just be the understanding, empathetic, curious person rather than getting angry in response. Something I’ve worked on over the years, with varying degrees of success, and still working on, because that muscle was just never exercised from a very early age.
Shana James (32:22):
Yes, and when we shut down our anger, we also shut down our power and our strength and our clarity and self-determination, right? There’s a dial — our inner fire and motivation — all those things get cut off when we don’t let ourselves be angry.
Jake Fishbein (32:44):
Yes. I do some work with this great, I don’t know what to call him, he’s not a therapist but does therapeutic work — his name’s Tom Delano. He does something called memory reconciliation, which is about updating the long-term memories in our amygdalas. It’s very somatic and very powerful. One of the things we worked on a couple years ago was boundaries. And I recognized I just didn’t have them. Again, I’d learned that when people push back on me, the appropriate thing to do is just be receptive, versus saying, “No, like, not cool. That doesn’t work.” So the last few years it’s been about noticing my boundaries, which I think is an expression of anger. Anger is that indication like, “Whoa, something’s wrong. Back off.”
Shana James (33:36):
Yeah, something isn’t working for me. Something is not right. I’m not enjoying this. This is not the way I want it.
Jake Fishbein (33:45):
Exactly. And that’s such a healthy barometer to have. Now, whether it’s real or it’s just a response to something historical and in the past that we brought into the present, that’s a different conversation. But it’s always worth noticing for myself, practicing what’s being activated for me. How do I honor that? And I say this, and if anybody’s listening, those aren’t the words that go through my head at the moment. It’s not like I’m sitting there thinking, “I’m having this reaction. How do I honor it?” It’s just being present to whatever’s there and trying to roll with it.
Shana James (34:25):
And first noticing like, “My God, my stomach is on fire,” or “My jaw is clenched,” or “Wow, I’m seeing — I’m going to admit — I’m seeing this person going up in a ball of flames,” or “I’m noticing these things,” and then being able to witness — ideally before we react.
Jake Fishbein (34:49):
Exactly.
Shana James (34:50):
Amazing. Well, I’m grateful for the vulnerability and the truth around these things, because I think it sounds like you and I had or have similar… I’ve got some of the “good girl,” the people-pleaser, the “it’s not okay to be angry,” so I can relate to a lot of what you’re saying. And I know I’m light years beyond where I was in terms of reactions and losing myself in the past. But there are daily things I practice to acknowledge if I do feel angry or to be able to ask for something that seems like it would put somebody out, or all those things. So thank you so much for being willing to talk about them.
Jake Fishbein (35:46):
Well, you’re welcome. And thank you for creating this space. I know it’s helpful for everybody listening, but it’s helpful personally to answer these questions. Even as I think about these a lot, it’s very different inside of a live recorded conversation.
Shana James (36:02):
Yeah, good, I’m glad, I’m glad, right? There is value as we talk through what we’re practicing. I think that’s why people come to us, right? They don’t necessarily think of it as “I’m practicing,” but I always give my clients practices to take back into their lives, and then we get to talk about that. “Okay, how did that go? Where did you feel like you were successful? And where did things break down?”
The poet David Whyte, who is a wonderful poet, I attended a training he does called Conversational Leadership during COVID — incredible — and he said something that’s always stuck with me. He said that we are always practicing at becoming someone.
Shana James (36:36):
He’s one of my favorites. I’m so jealous.
Jake Fishbein (36:56):
And I hear that in what you’re saying about this idea of practice — we are always practicing because we’re always experimenting. We’re never a finished product. There’s always something I don’t know, some blind spot I’m not even aware of, and I will become aware of it or I won’t at some indeterminate point in the future. But I know I’m always practicing at becoming the man that I want to be. Hardly means I’m perfect.
Shana James (37:26):
And the humility.
Jake Fishbein (37:26):
And that goes for anyone, yeah. I mean, it goes for anyone doing this work. Gurus aren’t perfect. There’s no human on this planet that acts in perfection. And if they do, it’s a mask of some kind.
Shana James (37:41):
Yeah, I think one of the fundamentals or foundations I’m finding that keeps relationships on course is this kind of humility and sense of a growth mindset, right? That we are always growing and curious about our growth and each other.
Jake Fishbein (38:03):
Hugely. I know for me it also gives myself permission to make a lot of mistakes because I certainly have. As I alluded to in the introduction, those mistakes — I wouldn’t be who I am without having made them. And who’s to say they really were mistakes? They were the only choice I could have made at the time, with the information and experiences I had.
Shana James (38:31):
Is there anything else you want to say before we wrap up?
Jake Fishbein (38:36):
The final thing, because I always think about this when it comes to love and relationships, and I first heard it — I always give him credit — from this relationship coach Sean Galanos. He said that the buy-in for love is heartbreak. And it’s something I remind myself of almost daily, especially when I have fears or worries or uncertainty come up. Because as humans, we’re always trying to protect ourselves from heartbreak.
And the reality is for any type of meaningful connection or experience, we have to be willing to put heartbreak on the table. And that — that I would say — is the buy-in. It’s like sitting down for a game of poker and the ante, the buy-in, the chips you put on the table, is heartbreak. You show up at the box office, the cash you’re putting down for your ticket is your willingness to be heartbroken.
Shana James (39:15):
That’s what you mean by the buy-in — that we actually have to be willing…
Jake Fishbein (39:35):
That is what unlocked for me the ability to be in this kind of relationship — getting to a place where I was willing to be heartbroken. And I have to choose that often because there are times I would prefer not to be.
Shana James (39:41):
I love that. It reminds me — it reminds me that, you know, when you talked about David Whyte and there’s always someone we’re becoming, I also feel like there’s… I’m letting go of being someone — the someone who has all of these reactions and the history and the right to react to situations in ways that, you know, something doesn’t feel fair. There’s this way of simultaneously becoming and unbecoming at the same time.
Jake Fishbein (40:22):
Yes, absolutely.
Shana James (40:24):
Yeah, and with that heartbreak, I’m willing to feel a broken heart or I’m willing to risk a broken heart to stay true to myself.
Jake Fishbein (40:40):
Yeah, or to have what I want to have. I’m willing to risk it. And I don’t know if there’s any great love that comes from not being willing to risk that. The heartbreak is what comes with feeling that deeply about someone or something.
Shana James (40:58):
Thank you.
Jake Fishbein (41:01):
Thank you, Shana. It’s been a pleasure.
Shana James (41:03):
Where can people find you?
Jake Fishbein (41:06):
I’m on LinkedIn at Jake Fishbein. You can also subscribe to my newsletter — I have a Substack called The Hungry Reader. I post every couple of weeks. The goal of The Hungry Reader is to help people think a little more deeply about their lives than they normally would. I call it The Hungry Reader because I had a food blog in college. Every blog started with “Dear Hungry Reader,” and I just can’t write a newsletter without starting that way. I like to say you may be hungry for food, but you may also be hungry for knowledge, questions, and introspection. You can find me there or at jakefishbein.com
Shana James (41:46):
Awesome. Thank you so much for being here and talking about your story and unlearning childhood patterns to build real love.
Jake Fishbein (41:48):
Thank you, Shana. It’s been wonderful.
Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!):
https://uppbeat.io/t/prigida/burble
License code: FTDWN40V3UIZ5PJL
Podcast (practicing-love): Play in new window | Download | Embed
Subscribe: RSS