How do we get the love we want in relationships? And the attention? Whether your partner is exhausted after work, or your date has a bad cell phone habit, It’s easy to complain about what you don’t get. Today’s podcast gives you a new practice for getting the love you want, and the attention you need, instead of learning how to stop wanting attention.
Find out how to have the best love and sex of your life!
Getting the Love You Want Without Demands or Complaints: Show Notes
Whether you’re dating or in a long term relationship, you’ll find that people won’t always pay as much attention to you as you’d like. These days our attention is pulled in so many directions, especially by cell phones and screens. It’s often easier to get upset with someone else for this, than to look at our own habits.
Instead of complaining, I teach my clients how to shift their complaints into speaking their desires. This has changed dynamics that had been happening for months or years! Today’s guest has another powerful solution that fits with this, and supports this perspective I believe in:
Rather than seeing a relationship as a place to try to get something you want, see a relationship as a beautiful place to co-create it.
On today’s Practicing Love Podcast, Keith Edwards, a speaker, educator, trusted leader, and unconventional scholar, talks about his practice of giving what he wants to receive. He is practicing being more conscious of his own habit of disconnection, and seeing how getting more present creates more of what he wants in his relationship.
Keith has consulted with more than 300 organizations, written more than 25 peer-reviewed articles and book chapters, as well as authored the book: Unmasking: Toward Authentic Masculinity, and he has more than 1,000 hours as a certified leadership and executive coach. And he agrees that romantic relationships are some of the hardest relationships we engage in. We discussed…
- The complexities of masculinity and how men are often trapped in rigid gender norms that harm their well-being
- The power of being present in relationships, which is much more impactful than demanding presence from others
- Letting go of the expectations and “keeping score” that lead to resentment in relationships
- How appreciation transforms relationships
- Creating true connection by understanding and supporting each other’s journeys
- Using the identity / integrity loop to grow into the person you admire
- Shifting from focusing on how everyone else should be to how you’re being
- The potential for collective healing and liberation
Keith is an inspiring human! You can also listen to his interview on the importance of men taking off their masks on my previous podcast — Man Alive.
If you’re struggling to get the love and attention you want, check out my quiz here to discover what’s getting in the way, or respond to this email to tell me more.
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Bio:
Keith empowers transformation for better tomorrows. He is an expert on leadership, learning, and equity. This expertise includes curricular approaches to learning beyond the classroom, allyship and equity, leadership and coaching, authentic masculinity, and sexual violence prevention. He is an authentic educator, trusted leader, and unconventional scholar.
Keith has consulted with more than 300 organizations, written more than 25 peer-reviewed articles and book chapters, and has more than 1,000 hours as a certified leadership and executive coach.
He is the author of the book Unmasking: Toward Authentic Masculinity. His TEDx Talk on preventing sexual violence has been viewed around the world. He is co-host of Student Affairs NOW, the premier podcast for student affairs and higher education.
Transcript:
Shana James (00:02)
Hello and welcome to this episode of Practicing Love, Have the Best Love and Sex of Your Life After 40. I’m your host, Shana James. And I am thrilled to be here today with an amazing man, Keith Edwards, who is a speaker and an author and his book Unmasking Toward Authentic Masculinity is so much of, I believe, what we need these days.
I know, men have been put in so many boxes and forced to be so many different ways that really kill their soul and spirit and freedom, to be who they really are in the full range of themselves. So Keith, thank you so much for doing this work.
Keith Edwards (00:38)
Thank you. What a great intro. Thank you for having me. We talked before on the previous podcast, I’m excited to be back with you. And I really love the framing you just offered there because I think one of the things that really gets in our way is when we don’t realize how much men have to gain from breaking out of these confining norms and expectations.
Shana James (01:09)
Yeah, it’s not always as obvious to everyone. It’s very obvious what women have to gain or people of other genders have to gain by breaking out of patriarchy or these boxes, but it’s not always obvious that men also are stuck in these systems and painfully so.
Keith Edwards (01:21)
Right. And that’s true. I think realizing that is a really critical step in engaging individual men in your life, but also men as a collective group. Cause I think when they have this binary, and Bell hooks reminds us that binary thinking is dominator thinking. When we have this binary of men versus women, or feminism is for women therefore it must be bad for men, or even the binary of men and women, and not people of other genders, it’s really limiting. But then once we start to realize that, one of things I talk about in my book, is that men are hurting.
And just notice how you heard that. Because what I said was “men are hurting.” And most people think about how men are hurting others – through violence, through sexual assault, through gun violence, through sexism, through talking over people in a meeting, through not being present, through taking up too much space. When people hear “men are hurting” they either think about how men are hurting others, or they think about how men are being hurt, how men are experiencing high rates of mental health issues, dying younger, far higher rates of suicide, far less attendance in college, the struggles that boys are having around their wellbeing and mental health.
And I think either looking at how men are hurting others, or how men are being hurt, is not going serve us. But if we can look at both of those, that men are hurting others, and men are being hurt at the same time, what’s the cause of both of those?
The cause of both of those is patriarchy and sexism, and how that’s set up and organized in our culture in rigid gender norms that don’t serve anybody. If we see it that way then that becomes a group project we’re all working on together for all of our benefit.
And it’s not an US versus THEM kind of thing. Addressing patriarchy would be good for women, good for trans folks, and it’d be good for men too. And I think we can unpack some of that. And I think that taps into men’s enlightened self-interest. And then men understand how much we have to gain by breaking down these things that do benefit us.
The privileges I receive as a man in this world are concrete and real. And they’re ruining my life every day. And the more I can get free from them, it’s better for me, it’s better for my wife. It’s better for my two daughters, it’s better for everybody.
Shana James (04:20)
I like that you pointed to that paradox, that both can be true at the same time, and that it seems like often in order to shift, you would have to get rid of all of those privileges. But I don’t think that’s necessarily the case either. I don’t think it’s as black and white as we think.
Keith Edwards (04:36)
And I think we have to be clear about privileges. I’ve worked really hard in my life. I’ve achieved some things, and I’ve earned some of that. And I’ve received advantages that I didn’t earn and don’t deserve. And I’ve gotten some that no one should get. And I’ve gotten some that everyone should get, and not everybody does. So I think we have to be clear about that. Can I read you one of my favorite quotes? I think you’ll know this one.
Shana James (05:19)
Please. Yes.
Keith Edwards (05:20)
This is from Lola Watson, who’s an Aboriginal activist in Australia and she says, “If you have come here to help me, you’re wasting your time. But if you have come because your liberation is bound up with mine, then let us work together.” That’s a quote I often end talks that I give – that we’re all in this together. And when men are doing this for women, we often show up as savior, hero, or rescuer, and that can be really toxic and really do a lot of harm. It might be coming from really good intentions, but the impact of that can be really harmful.
Shana James (06:00)
It’s so interesting. There’s a part of me that thinks, I’d rather we start there than with the disinterest or throwing it out the window. But yes, you also point to a more powerful way.
Keith Edwards (06:10)
Yeah, I think there’s maybe a progression from actively hateful, to indifferent, to really wanting to be helpful, to this is a group project we’re all working on (and how do I want to not rescue, save or be the hero) and so how do I want to work with you, with other folks for our collective liberation? And what would that look like and how would I benefit as well?
And when we understand that, we become much more effective, consistent and sustainable in how we show up, and stand up and speak out and engage.
Shana James (06:52)
Beautiful. Thank you. I imagine being your daughters and your wife, and it extends far and wide beyond that. I’m grateful for how you see this.
Keith Edwards (07:04)
Yeah, well, they’d have a lot of different things to say, I assure you.
Shana James (07:12)
Ha ha. Ok, can you tell us a little bit more about your wife and your daughters, how old are they? How long have you been in this relationship?
Keith Edwards (07:17)
Pop quiz. Yeah, my partner, my wife, we’ve been together for 2003. Is that 21 years? I haven’t done that math. We’ve been married for 17. And we have two daughters, one who’s 14 and in ninth grade and another who is 12 and in seventh grade.
Shana James (07:31)
21 years. Nice. I have a seventh grader as well. Wild age it is.
Keith Edwards (07:51)
Interesting times, you never know what’s going to happen. It’s a roller coaster every day.
Shana James (07:53)
My God. It actually, pains my heart oftentimes to watch the kids and how they interact and where I can see that insecurity that breeds bitterness or arrogance, all of it breaks my heart.
Keith Edwards (08:12)
Or shutting down. Yeah. I describe it as one foot completely in girlhood and childhood and the other foot completely in womanhood and adulthood. And on any given day, I never know what, I mean, any given moment, I don’t know what I’m going to get.
Yeah, I don’t know if I’m going to get my favorite singing along out loud to Lana Del Rey and very explicit adult concepts, or if I’m going to get, remember that Disney movie? Let’s watch that again.
Shana James (08:27)
Mm. Yeah, there’s something amazing about that, right? And actually, as I think about being adults and being in romantic relationships, I think one of the things I’ve been noticing for myself that I’m trying to break free of is only being that adult responsible, you know — got to get shit done, make the world happen, take care of my kid. And to really actually try to reintegrate some of those youthful parts of myself. In a way, as we watch our kids do that, there’s something I’m learning there, I realize as you say it.
Keith Edwards (09:16)
Same. I’m not very good at play and silliness. And I’d like to integrate some more of that, but that’s a challenge for me. And I’ll just tell you the difference between 12 and 14 is, and the silliness and the play and the goofiness is dramatic. And it’s really sad for me to see the 14 year old, just like me, having lost touch with a lot of that, trying to be serious and do all the things and…
Shana James (09:42)
And get it right and fit in or, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Okay, so can we shift into your relationship? I mean, you have a relationship with your kids, but your romantic partnership.
So, really what I’ve been doing here in Practicing Love is talking about struggles and I’ve been interviewing experts in their fields, especially in the field of leadership and relationships, because I think people don’t often hear that everybody struggles in relationships, and that we have these learnings and growth and wrestling, and unlearnings. And so a lot of times people feel worse off or bad at this, or I’m no good.
Keith Edwards (10:31)
Hmm, unlearnings. Yeah.
Shana James (10:48)
So if you’d be so kind as to share something that you’ve struggled with in a romantic relationship, and then we’ll get to the learnings from there.
Keith Edwards (10:57)
Mm-hmm, I think the thing that I’ve been thinking about super recently, like this past week, which has been a heck of a week, I think…what did you say, practicing love? Yeah, that, that’s what I’ve been thinking about. I’ve been thinking about how easy it is for me, not just in my partnerships, but with my kids, with my dad, with my friends, colleagues, to be frustrated with others, hurt by others, and focus on how they need to change.
I’m real good at that. I’m real good at the analysis, and here’s what they need to do differently. And I’m really good at the, this is why they’re like that. And here’s how they need to get over that. It’s about their childhood. It’s about this, it’s about this thing and blah, blah, And they need to be different.
And I think what I’ve been focused on recently is letting go of how I want other people to change and focusing how I want to change in my interactions with them.
I’ll give a simple thing and then we can mess it up from there. I was just showing my, my partner this meme as we were lying in bed on our phones. I don’t know if anyone can relate to that.
Shana James (12:23)
No one else does that.
Keith Edwards (12:47)
We were talking about our phones and I showed her this meme which is that being an adult is just every once in a while taking a break from your phone to complain about how your partner is always on their phone.
So one of the things that is hard for me is when I feel like she’s not present with me and more present with her phone. Then whether that’s Instagram or the text message thread of her friends and things, those things seem immediate and need her immediate attention. And then I don’t feel like I get that. And I think that’s true. And I think continuing to raise that issue is not serving me very well.
Shana James (13:33)
I would venture to guess that there’s a HOW in there, like how you raise the issue versus that you raise the issue.
Keith Edwards (13:40)
Yeah, think that’s true. I think there’s also just like, leave me alone, you do this too. Which is also totally fair. And I think instead, the simple version, and like I said, we can mess this up, but the simple version is if I want her to put down the phone and be more present with me, and…as two adults with two busy jobs and two kids in middle school and high school and four sports teams for each of them… there’s not a lot of time when we are actually able to be present with each other.
And so when we mess those few moments up in between dinner and all the laundry and our shows, there’s a small window. But if I focus on how I want her to be more present, one, I’m out of control because…
Shana James (14:11)
You have no control over that, right?
Keith Edwards (14:34)
Yes, no say over that.
Two, she just feels criticized and then defensive. And then sometimes that comes back at me about, you’re on your phone., You were just on your phone for the past 45 minutes, who are you? What are you doing?
Totally fair. But what I’ve really been focused on is, one, how do I, in this example, how do I be present?
And even if I’m present, not needing her to then be present. But just, I’m just gonna be present.
Shana James (15:07)
Right, just starting with, this is the thing I was asking for. This is what I want from her. So what if I do this, not just expect an immediate return?
Keith Edwards (15:20)
Which is just manipulation.
Yeah, what if I just said, well, I want her to be present, so I’m just gonna be present. And what if I just sat here for 15 minutes and was just present with her while she sat over there and was on her phone?
Shana James (15:27)
Mm-hmm. Have you tried it? What happens?
Keith Edwards (15:36)
Yeah, it’s not so bad. It’s kind of nice, to just be fully present. She’s on her phone. I’m here with her. This is kind of nice. It’s not really what I initially would have wanted, but if I can really let go of that want and just be like, yeah, this is kind of nice.
Shana James (15:51)
Okay, that’s an interesting point too, the letting go of wants, but what would you say to someone who’s like, I don’t wanna manipulate a person, but I actually do want them to be present with me.
So, eventually does sitting here and being present support her to be present, or are you really purely just going for, I’m actually gonna give myself, in a way, what I’ve been asking for.
Keith Edwards (16:27)
I think, in that moment I’m focused on being present with her, but I’m also being present with myself.
Because I wanna pick up my phone and then I go, wow, you really wanna pick up your phone. What is going on there? You really wanna get up and get a snack, and you’re not hungry. What is going on? So just to sit there and just be present is not just about the other person, but it’s also about yourself.
It’s also just, as you said, I just love this practicing love. Someone in a completely different context, in a business and leadership context, was sharing their journey. A very successful person said, you know, what was really the pivot point?
This was a woman and she said, I’m very clear. And I thought it would be like when her sales racketed up or when she published the book, or when she did this thing or when she finally realized that she needed to do this. And I was really looking for the business tool and she said, everything shifted when I stopped needing to be loved and started being love.
Shana James (17:43)
I love that. I often come back to that one. All I really want is to be love. I know that’s not for everybody listening, right? That’s not your aspiration or your goal, but there is something when we shift from what am I trying to get… A relationship is a place where I’m trying to get something versus I could be this, I could co-create this, I could bring the parts that I’m wanting and then explore, and experiment, right…see what happens versus complaining about how someone else is being.
Keith Edwards (18:14)
Yeah. We can use her powerful example of love, and my much simpler example of presence, of when you are needing, wanting, expecting, analyzing, critiquing, evaluating, judging, that’s no fun.
And then you’re just focused on how you’re not being loved by somebody else or how that other person is not being present with you. And we know that the human brain is not good at not focusing on things like if I say don’t whatever, or don’t think about pink elephants… you’re thinking about pink elephants, right?
I remember my kids, when there were thunderstorms and it was frightening I said, You can focus on the loud booms and how it’s scary, or you can focus on how it’s raining and cold out there and here you are warm and cozy and dry in your bed.
And so focus on how great this is….how awesome is it that you’re not out there in that? And they love thunderstorms.
But instead of focusing on, don’t be afraid of the monster underneath the bed, what is it that you wanna be focused on?
And I think as long as you’re focused on the presence that you’re not getting, or the love that you’re not getting, then you’re just paying attention to all the evidence that affirms that perspective, right?
Shana James (19:32)
Yeah, and looking for proof of that, right? I often teach people the difference between seeing the best in someone, and either making an invitation or getting curious or saying, “hey, I see this in you and it’s not what’s happening, but help me understand,” versus seeing the worst in someone and then cutting them down and blaming and shaming and “you always act this way and you never…”, it doesn’t inspire someone to step up into connection or intimacy or love.
Keith Edwards (19:48)
Yes. Yes. Right. Or to make the changes towards a better version of themselves. Because even if they do, they’re just doing it for you. And that’s not going to stick. And so in my simple example, what if I just let go of her being present and needing that and evaluating, And what if I just try and be present?
Shana James (20:33)
So how’s it going as you’re doing it? You started to say, you sit there and you’re actually witnessing.
Keith Edwards (20:36)
It’s a new adventure, but I like it. And what a monumental shift to go from needing to be loved by someone else to just being love and just seeing what happens, right?
Because when you’re being love, you’re not doing it so that somebody else will love you back, right? You’re just being love. And if I’m going to be love, and if you are mad at me, then I’m going to be love while you’re mad at me.
Shana James (20:51)
Bring love, offering love. Yeah, and I think helping people see that, if you start being love enough of the time, and your relationship isn’t connected, or you don’t feel met, or you don’t feel understood, or you don’t feel any of those things, there are some choice points, right?
There are choice points where you have a conversation and say, this is what I want, are you open to this? We don’t just sit and be love always, in this plane, and then watch someone attack us and abuse us and say, I’m just gonna stay here.
Keith Edwards (21:43)
No, right. But I think focusing on letting go of the attachment of someone else doing something in response is really liberating too.
I mean, you’re talking about really not great situations, I 100 % agree, but in general, letting go of the expectation. Cause if I would have sat there for 15 minutes, and tracked that it’s been 15 minutes, and she hasn’t put down the phone, and the whole time I’ve been like, now I’m irritated and agitated, which is super tempting to do, super tempting to do.
Shana James (22:09)
Totally. Yes.
Keith Edwards (22:14)
I don’t find keeping score ever helps. But if I just sit there and go, wow, I’m just going to be present. Don’t need her to be present, letting go of that.
Although that was sort of the initial thing, but what’s it like for me to be present? It’s hard, it’s challenging. And here’s what I’m tempted to do. Here’s what pulls me away. Here’s what I want to think about it. But what if I just sit here and be present? What’s it like?
And to be honest, in this day and age, to sit there for 15 minutes and not be on your phone and not watch TV and not listen to music and not do something, I don’t know when the last time I was that I did that.
It’s a mindfulness meditation practice. And so I guess that’s one around presence. You could expand that to, I’m trying to think of something in between the presence and love., How about being appreciative?
Shana James (22:43)
My gosh, It’s a lost art.
Keith Edwards (23:09)
I’d like you to be more appreciative. Well, how about I flip that to just, I’m just going to be more appreciative?
Not as a way to get you… I’m not going to give you five compliments and keep track of how many you said, right? That’s keeping score, but I’m just going to be really appreciative.
And I’ll just see what it feels like to me. Yes. And I love that you use that word practice, because I think that’s something I think about a lot is when I hear practice. I think about meditation and nobody’s good at meditating.
The Dalai Lama is famous for saying I’m a terrible meditator, which he does for four hours every morning. Or yoga. Nobody’s good at yoga. But you practice. You keep doing it. You keep getting a little better. You keep refining.
Shana James (23:53)
I don’t do yoga to get better at it. I do it for the practice of it.
Keith Edwards (24:00)
Yeah, and to be on the journey. So the practice of loving, or the practice of being present, or the practice of being appreciative, I think pulls me out of the transactional expectations. I know Brene Brown says, expectations are the seeds of resentment. And so I think that’s the healthy non-attachment.
Or Buddhists would call the middle path of just doing it for being 100 % focused on you. I’m gonna be present or I’m gonna be appreciative.
How appreciative was I today? Well, not as, not as quite appreciative as I really wanted to be this morning. So, okay, let’s focus on you and how appreciative you are. And what does it feel like to be appreciative? And what do you want to appreciate now?
Shana James (24:29)
I love that. And then you notice how much of my life is based in expectations? How much of this is based in stories? What’s really happening here, as opposed to just being in the frustrated, empty, feeling of something’s lacking.
Keith Edwards (25:12)
Well, and I think that’s a real easy thing to do when you’ve known each other deeply for more than 20 years. I’ve got a lot of stories.
She always, she never, she’s probably, she’s gonna, I’m sure she thinks… It’s so easy to do that. I don’t do that with people I’ve just met, because I don’t know them.
Shana James (25:27)
And for me that is a practice. Noticing, I have a never or always story. What is actually happening in this moment?
And I often say to couples, as I’m working with them, or single people going back into a relationship, okay, anytime you go into always or never, you’re just going to create defensiveness. So keep it in this moment, in this singular experience — let’s discuss this. Let’s figure this out. Then the always never gets to figure itself out.
Keith Edwards (26:10)
Yeah. I often in workshops talk about beginner’s mind, which is this principle from Buddhism where it is to have this conversation as though we’ve never had it before.
And I’m thinking about leadership concepts or tools and education and things like that.. When the person you live with comes home, ask them how their day was and listen as though you don’t know what they’re about to say!
Shana James (26:39)
Actually listen.
Keith Edwards (26:40)
Actually, listen, and I think one of the things that I think we all know is that I’m a very different person than I was six months ago. I’ve changed my mind about a lot of things. I’ve changed my perspective on so many things. I’ve learned so many things. I worry about different things.
Shana James (26:54)
I don’t know if everybody knows that though.
I think people often, especially when you’re looking at your partner, think “this is the same person.”
Keith Edwards (27:00)
Yeah. I think many of us know how we’ve changed, though we think everybody else was finished and done 10 years ago and they’re fully self actualized and self realized. And we know how changing and moving and dynamic we are now. I think this is where kids can be beautiful teachers. Cause they’re, you know, particularly when they’re like three.
I remember I would travel for business, and I’d be gone for like five days and I’d come home and be like, you’re like noticeably different. Like you look different.
We got this great digital frame and we have it loaded up with all sorts of family pictures and it’s in our kitchen. So I see it all the time. And it’s such a juxtaposition to see this picture of my daughter when she was about three, taking this huge bite out of this donut that’s bigger than her head, and just so full of joy.
And then to watch this 14 year old in a ponytail walk through the door and think, how is that the same organism? How? And just for me, how yesterday the three year old is. Like I know her in some ways I know her better than I know this 14 year old in my kitchen.
Shana James (28:08)
Wow.
Yeah, how is that the same being?
And then we come into our adult lives and we think, well, at 25, 26, the frontal cortex is fully formed and, you know, we are who we are. And that I think that can’t be farther from the truth.
Keith Edwards (28:41)
Yeah, I was in grad school and I was going to a wedding, and to get to the wedding I went to my grandfather’s house and he was gonna drive me to the airport.
He was like 74 at the time. And he said, well, what are you doing in grad school? And I said, well, I’m helping college students figure out who they are. I thought, he’s gonna be so impressed. He’s gonna be like, wow, that’s amazing. And he wasn’t.
He just sat there as he was driving and said, wow, that’s interesting. I think I’m still trying to figure out who I am.
And I just remember looking at him like, you were supposed to be impressed. And instead you’re thinking about these college students.
And then just looking at him and going, I have to do this for the rest of my life? I thought I just had this figured out and I was done and now I knew why, and now I’m good.
And he was like, yeah, first I grew up in Pueblo, Colorado. And then I was a minister. And, and then I realized I didn’t believe in any of that while I was officiating my father’s funeral, and then I met your grandma and then we got married, then we had five kids, and then we got divorced, and then I sold real estate, and now I sell funeral plots and that’s really real estate.
And now I’m done with doing that, so now I mow the lawn and read the paper and now who am I?
Shana James (29:50)
Wow. Now what do I want, and who am I? And discovering, always discovering if we’re open to that. I think the death of a lot of relationships is that it’s risky for us to grow if we don’t know if we’re gonna grow together, right?
I see a lot of people who feel it’s threatening if my partner grows in that way, because I don’t know if they’re still going to choose me, versus the version of them right now is the one who does choose me.
Keith Edwards (30:32)
Right, I think the difference between couples growing apart versus growing together, I think is really different.
And I think when one partner changes and the other partner doesn’t, they’re both resentful. Like, why aren’t you changing? This was the deal. And the other person’s like, why are you changing? This was the deal. And they both resent the other for not sticking to the deal.
Shana James (30:43)
This was the deal exactly.
Thank you so much. I can feel the multi-layered wisdom. Because there’s wisdom in even being who you want the other to be, and then doing that from a place of, all right, now I’m gonna co-create something in my relationship and I’m going to do this to create change.
And we can go right even deeper, like you said, into just who am I being, and how do I take 100 % responsibility for my life and my relationship and how I show up and what I create around me?
So thank you for continuing to go deeper and deeper into this one.
Keith Edwards (31:35)
Yeah, my pleasure. And I think that practicing is really great. And that 100 % responsibility is also super helpful. Because I always think about that as my side of the street and your side of the street. Like, I’m just going to worry about my side of the street. And I’ll let you worry about your side of the street.
Shana James (32:01)
Right, which again could be misconstrued by someone listening who could think, I’m not going to take care of the person on the other side of the street or my partner, but that’s not what you mean.
Keith Edwards (32:10)
No, I’m going to worry about how I take care, and not how you should be and how you should show up and when you should do, but I’m going to do this and I’m going to manage this and I need time alone. So I’m going to go be alone rather than “why don’t you give me time to be alone?”
Shana James (32:16)
Yes, thank you for clarifying.
Any last thing that’s on your mind or your heart before we wrap up and then you can tell people where to find you?
Keith Edwards (32:36)
Yeah, I think I just want to share this connects to one of the concepts from my book that came on the research with men later in life with this notion of becoming, which we’ve in many ways been talking about this whole time.
And becoming was this combination of exploring identity, who we are, and who we aspire to be. And then how am I doing? And I would have thought that it would be linear. Like we’d figure out who we aspire to be, and then we try and do that and fail and try and do better.
But the research really showed me there was much more of a conversation between our identity and our integrity. It was our aspirations that informed our doing, but how we were doing also informed our sense of self. And so I might say I’m an honest person and then realize I’ve lied three times this week.
So am I no longer an honest person? Or am I an honest person and I just need to do better?
Or I know I’m just not a very good listener. But then people keep telling me they feel seen and heard by me. So maybe that’s no longer true. Maybe I am a good listener, maybe I need to change my identity. Yeah and so I just love that notion of identity and integrity about who we aspire to be and…
Shana James (33:54)
Maybe I can update who I see myself as?
Keith Edwards (34:04)
…and how we’re doing filling into each other. And I sort of see it as this infinity loop feeding into each other.
And I call that whole thing the process of becoming. On the doing side, it’s practice, as you pointed to, it’s practice. It’s listening, it’s all these ing terms, loving, being present, appreciating.
These are some of the things. It’s the practice of doing them. Imperfectly and messily and trying. And trying again, and trying again, and learning from that.
Shana James (34:43)
Trying again and not trying to get it right or thinking you have to be perfect. Cause that’s just a recipe for feeling awful about yourself and not try right.
And then, when there’s something I feel like I need to be perfect at, then I don’t try, or I don’t bring myself to it. Cause I’m already feeling defeated.
Keith Edwards (34:48)
Yes, yes. And that fear of falling short of perfection keeps us safe. Like, if you just don’t do anything, if you don’t try, you can’t get it wrong.
Shana James (35:15)
There is a kind of safety in that.
Ok, how can people find your work?
Keith Edwards (35:26)
The best way to find my work is KeithEdwards.com. One of the things to find there is information about my book, Unmasking, also my work around empowering better tomorrows through leadership, learning, and equity.
And my favorite thing is I send a weekly newsletter every Tuesday morning with my latest thinking around leadership, learning, and equity. And as a bonus, once a month, first Saturday of the month, I share all the best things I’m learning or enjoying, which are often podcasts and blog posts and articles or TV shows and music and poetry and nature and things like that. And it’s totally free and people want to connect there. It’s a great little way for us to connect and to be in community together.
Shana James (36:06)
Fantastic. Awesome. Thank you so much.
Keith Edwards (36:16)
Yeah, thanks, Shana.
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